sptsman
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I suspect there are still some talks going on but it is more likely that both sides have agreed to let the market determine his worth. If he was at 10 years $30 mil and sincerely thinks he can get that from some other team, I guess he feels he needs to test the market. If the Cards can't offer more than 7 or 8 years at $27-$30 mil per year and feel they can still field a compeditive team, they have no choice but to let him see what else is out there. Not necessarily a bad appraoch for eithr side, if that's what it came down to.
On one hand I wish they could have made a deal but I can see both sides of this. I suspect the Cardinals think like me that there is no possible way any team is going to offer him $30 mil for 10 years, after this season. I would suspect he'll see offers like they have already made to him. Then it boils down to who does he want to play for.
If the Cardinals offered $27 or $28 mil for 7 or 8 years, he would have been the highest paid player in the game and could satify his ego and his bank account. If his goal is to break the bank and get every last dollar he could, even if in means playing on a teams that can't compete becasue of his salary, I say let him walk.
The problem with all of this is that both he and Cards have been very good about keeping a tight lid on the negotiations (or lack thereof). So, in the end, we really don't know what has trandspired or who offered what.
Oh well, we know we have him for at least one more year. If the rotation pitches to it'spotential and the hitters hit to their's. We should be able to win the NL Central. I'm not sure we can beat the Phillies, Giants or a few other divisional favotites but that's why they play the games...
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"Hunts are best measured by the endurance of the memories they produce..."
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Paul Dallas
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I can't say I'm surprised that he wasn't signed.
The more I think about it, by NOT signing him, all the pressure is on Albert. He better well have a damn good year this year with us, put up big #'s and stay injury free, or he ain't gonna get his 10yr-30m from anyone. That only helps the Cards this year. If he doesn't have a big year, or gets gimpy, the amount he can command will only fall.
If we can't afford him anyway . . . why not roll the dice and milk him for at least this year.
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last_stand
the gay card thrower Call Me Ragnar
Reged: 12/14/05
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Quote:
Paul Dallas said:
The more I think about it, by NOT signing him, all the pressure is on Albert.
And, imo, he thrives on such pressure. When has he ever wilted? If you HAD to put a grand on which kind of year he is about to have under these circumstances....a chance to shove it back at Dewitt and Mo....which way would you bet?
AP seems hellbent on going to market and finding his value. IF as reported by SI, and I think it very much in the range, The Cards went to 8/200 but it just left too much on the table AS AP SEES IT. If the guy weren't so damn bullheaded that offer would have at least spurred more chatter. Are we supposed to be as stupid as they Yankee's and make the Arod offer the end of all being? Joe Mauer just signed for 23 mil a year...hell that offer imo is a better baseline than friggen Arod.
But why didn't management at least try harder? Why the fork ONE offer? This hardly jumped up and bit them in the azz....they had YEARS to prepare for all of this...Did they inquire if AP had an interest in company vestment? Did they come back 7/200 with a plan for his later years? Personally without knowing all the team numbers I would have liked to see a 6/200...yeah OVERPAY the shorter run....with options afterward. AP could have massaged his pride and might have jumped.
But you guys might be right...they threw out the one offer and now they will gamble......again.......and will likely lose.........again.
All I know is I just DO NOT want to see that dude in a cubs uniform. I can take the rest, but not that.
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Sometimes you got it sometimes you get got.
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triton
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From some reports they offered Albert something like 6 years for 200 million which I think I heard right would put him in the top 10 salaries but not in the top 5. Really after all Albert has done for the past 10 years, I would have to consider that particular offer a slap in the face. Anyone else have any figures like that?
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last_stand
the gay card thrower Call Me Ragnar
Reged: 12/14/05
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6/200 would make him the highest paid BB player by far. That's 33.3 mil per year.
The "rumor" reported by SI was 8/200 or 25 mil avg.
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Sometimes you got it sometimes you get got.
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H2ODOG
the one who never tires
Reged: 12/22/05
Posts: 10993
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There is no reason Albert should not be in the top 5 of the highest paid players. They make enough money in ticket sales, T-shirt sales, beer, etc. to pay him big money. Hell just the signing they could market Cardinal for life.
Reports have the deal at $19-21 million a year......the 10th highest paid player in MLB. Yes its an outrageous number to begin with, but if he is the Best in baseball.....and pretty much everyone around or outside of baseball says he's the best, yet we say he's top 10. Miguel Freaking Cabrera would make more money a year than Albert. Hell Joe Mauer will earn $23 million a year. Mauer already has 7 years of catching under his belt, and with the amount of games he plays a season, he won't be putting up the production number he is in 8 years. Its hard enough being a catcher let alone a 6'5" catcher. Joe Mauer is an awesome player, but his numbers are no where NEAR Albert's numbers. Hell Albert has more homers in most of his 2 seasons than Mauer has in his career. But according to Management.....even Joe Mauer is a better player and worth more money than #5.
Management has knew for years this was coming up. They could have got a deal done 2 years ago or even last year when the market was weak. Now, it got stronger this past season and off season.
It blew up in their face. Now, the new FACE of the francise is lookin at being a free agent. Stan the Man will always be the Face of St. Louis. With Musial's age and the limited amount he will be in public in the future.... DeDumb had a chance to sign Albert for life, creating a new FACE of the Franchise
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H2ODOG
the one who never tires
Reged: 12/22/05
Posts: 10993
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Ask Chitcago if they would pay $250 million over 10 years. They've pissed that much away in a couple years over their "talent"
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It’s better to be hated for who you are, instead of loved for who you aren’t.
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sptsman
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 6196
Loc: Missouri
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Jeff, you make a lot of assumptions and then gin up a great deal of hate, based on those assumptions. First, I have not seen a single report where he was being offered less than $25 mil per year. Not sure where the $19-$20 mil reports come from but I think they'd have to be considered nonsense. The reality is that Pujols, his agent and the Cards have kept a tight lid on these negotiations and nobody really knows what was offered and what transpired.
Second, what are you supposed to do if you crunched the numbers and did all of the internal evaluations and came up with your uppermost limits and he told you that you weren't even in the ballpark? What if they offered 7 or 8 years at $25-$28 mil per year and they said not to bother with another offer unless it starts with a 3? The reality is that every team out there, other than the Yankees and possibly the Red Sox has a limit, regarding what they could spend. Be honest and ask yourself if you would enjoy 2016 - 2021, knowing you get to watch Albert but the team play .500 ball every year, because they can't afford pitching or any other key players. $30 mil a year to one player, on a team with a $100 mil payroll is simply insane...
I get the face of the franchise and all of that. I understand his value beyond the field. But the reality is that his ego and pride have taken over. He wants to break the bank and he knows he has a better than average chance of doing it after this season. All of the talk about wanting to stay here and all of the good guy routine is starting to ring a little hollow. He wants as much money as he can get and that's that.
You insult DeWitt and act as if the Cardinals put Royals or Pirate-like teams on the field. If I recall, we've been to the WS twice in the last 10 years and won one of them. We've made the playoffs more than we haven't, since DeWitt has owned the team. Quite frankly, there are about 20 or more markets that would kill to have an owner like DeWitt and his gang. Why does it matter if he knew about this for months or even years? Pujols and his agent aren't dummies. They knew they didn't have to sign last year or this year. They knew they could shoot for the moon and not have to worry, if they didn't get it. They knew the payday was coming one way or another.
I'm still thinking he may get signed during the season. IF not, I'd put the odds at less than 50/50 the Cards can keep him. We've seen the idiocy of the Yankees. We've seen what a rogue owner can do, like when A-Rod signs with the Rangers. We've seen how that can cripple a team.
The Cardinals survived when Musial retired, when Carlton was traded, when Gibson and Brock retired. We lived through the trade of Joe Torre and Keith Hernandez and the list goes on... Yes, it will suck to lose Pujols to free agency but Cardinal Nation will carry on. And if, by some chance, Pujols signs with the Cubs, you know he was never really a Cardinal at all....
Whew...
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"Hunts are best measured by the endurance of the memories they produce..."
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H2ODOG
the one who never tires
Reged: 12/22/05
Posts: 10993
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Quote:
sptsman said:
Jeff, you make a lot of assumptions and then gin up a great deal of hate, based on those assumptions. First, I have not seen a single report where he was being offered less than $25 mil per year. Not sure where the $19-$20 mil reports come from but I think they'd have to be considered nonsense. The reality is that Pujols, his agent and the Cards have kept a tight lid on these negotiations and nobody really knows what was offered and what transpired.
http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/id/7213/cardinals-undersold-pujols-with-contract-offer
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-pujolsneedstotalk021611
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/16/pujols-releases-statement-on-failed-negotiations/
Well read those and you can see a few sources for the $19-21M/year mark. The best quote I've seen.....The best player in baseball. The fourth-best paid at his position. For piss sakes, even Adrian Gonzalez is gonna get more than Albert. And if the tight lips camps were so tight lipped.....where the hell do the $25 million/year talks come from. Its nonsense to think $19-21M, but somehow rational to think we can believe $25M. Truth is, now that everything is over stuff is gettin leaked. A BILLIONARE is worried about an extra 5-8 million a year.
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It’s better to be hated for who you are, instead of loved for who you aren’t.
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Paul Dallas
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Uh . . . Cardinal Nation. God, I taste my own throw-up anytime I hear someone say that. 
Let me explain it to Dog in a way that makes sense. The uh, financial model that is Cardinal nation, cannot support an endeavor of 10y-30m that Sir Pujols doth require. Projections of his long-term profit potential begin to wane significantly somewhere soon after Sir Pujols 35th birfday, and economic modeling has projected many a cold, empty red seats and decelerating $9 beer sales around this time frame as the competitive viability of the greater team begins to collapse around the financial weight of such a contract. Simultaneously, the confines of Yankee stadium have always been the aspiring pinnacle of many a young and talented Dominican player, regardless of previous said allegiances and do-goodery, and working in concert with this strong appeal is a fiscal environment in which the economics can more fully deploy as well as leverage the many risks associated with a penultimate player transitioning from his zenith and well into the twilight of his career.
Cardinal Nation and pent up anger at DeWitt. 
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H2ODOG
the one who never tires
Reged: 12/22/05
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WE don't make the playoffs 6 out of the past 10 season, or make 2 World Series trips. Without Albert on the field we are a .500 team from 2001-2010. Go look at the rooster....I did. Who's back do we ride into the playoffs year in and out...Jim Edmonds, Chris Duncan...no wait, it was Scott Rolen, So Taguchi, and David Eckstein right? There are so many players that just pop up and scream team leader who drove in 100+ and scored 100+. Outside of the great 2004 season, the only player outside of Albert who has driven in and scored 100+ a year we traded for a pitcher who hasn't done chit except get cut on. Bill DeDumb Jr. got RICH off Pujols by going to the playoffs, and by going/winning the WS. No Pujols, no playoffs...no banner. Those 20+ markets would have killed to have Pujols.
The "rouge" contract to A-Roid can't even be applied here. For starters...that deal was more than DOUBLE what the highest paid player in baseball was the previous year Hell that salary coulda paid several teams ENTIRE TEAM salary. It was way over the top and even 10 years later that money is the second highest....and A-roid himself only tops it. Today...most teams have an $80M/year payroll. Sure the exceptions in Pittsburg or San Diego are much lower, but even the damn Orioles can afford $70M year and put a crappy product on the field since 2000. They had an $80M payroll in 2000 and have put a shitty team on the field the entire decade with higher payrolls than STL.
I believe if management offered ALbert $25-27M/year for 7 years he would have taken it or they would still be working out final details of the contract......hell a club option for an additional 2 years would have made it close to what most thought the deal could get done for. $30M for 7 years would most definatly had him signed with a club option on a couple more year, but I wouldn't want him for more than his 7 years. In 2000 the payroll was under $64M. It jumped over $10M the next year and stayed there until 2003 when it jumped ANOTHER $10M/year....and it stayed there until 2005, when it jumped almost $10M more a year...and has been around the $94M/year, except 08' @ $99M. Now payroll has jumped ANOTHER $10M from 2010 to 2011. Up to $104 Million a year. All the expert claim the St. Louis market can't stay at the high payroll for a long period of time and stay healthy. Even the fukin Twinkies and Mariners had a higher payroll in 2010 than the Cardinals.
The Cardinals can't afford a $130+ Million payroll like the Cubs, Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, and Mets. We put a better product on the field for a lot less. The extra money Pujols should get isn't going to put the organization under. We don't have a shitty farm system. Hell the $8 Million we are paying to Lance Berkman this year if given to #5...gives ALbert $24M for the year....and we are still at $104M for the year, with a damn fine team around Pujols. The Cardinals can put a great team on the field, and not a buncha journeymen or AAA players by paying Albert 25M a year. Payrolls go up. Its what they do.
1999 St. Louis Cardinals TEAM Payroll $46,248,195
2011 St. Louis Cardinals TEAM Payroll 104,362,500And still counting. So in 12 years the payroll has more than doubled and management has NEVER cried or bitched about it...but suddenly its a crisis and we can't afford it. PLayers get more money from decade to decade. Everything goes up from decade to decade, from the tickets, to parking, and the beer. DeWitt can afford it. $2 a seat ticket price increase for 3+ million people makes the $19-21M contract jump to $25-27M.
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It’s better to be hated for who you are, instead of loved for who you aren’t.
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griffin
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Jeff.....lemme let you in on a dirty little St. Louis secret....there ain't alot of guys taking their family to the ballpark these days on tickets they buy at the gate....and there ain't alot of guys taking their families to the ballpark these days on season tickets they own either.
We don't need Sir Albert to make baseball viable in St. Louis......sorry to burst your bubble.
And.....you can take the games you took YOUR family to in the last few years out of the equation if you wish.....I doubt we'll miss either of them. 
20-30 million per year for 10 years.....KISS MY ASS!!!!!!
griffin
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"The Irish are one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever." - Sigmund Freud
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last_stand
the gay card thrower Call Me Ragnar
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 7742
Loc: anywhere but "HomeofToto"
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I'm trying to keep my powder dry until some FACTS come out. But for now Dawgs theory of a low offer has merit:
AP wants to be the highest paid player in the game = 27.5 mil
AP wants a long term contract...he has never said 10 years but that is the assumption.
Rumors have Cards offering 8/200 = 25 mil
Rumors have Cards offering 8/160 = 20 mil or thereabout
Both parties agree ONE offer was made
Both parties agree NO counter offer was made
Now based on that info the very fact the AP camp did not respond...did not even counter.....would tell me the lower offer is by far the more likely offer made. To not even respond AP is saying one of two things: 1) Come back after you put down the crack pipe or 2) forget it I am determined to find market value even though your offer is likely close.
#1 is the far more likely scenario imo.
DeWitt had best be careful to not win the PR battle now and tar AP if he wants to eventually do bizness with him later this year and win the war.
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sptsman
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LS - I don't see DeWitt or Mo trying to play a PR game or make AP the bad guy. It seems to me in this era of 24/7 sports "news" coverage and 50-11 talking heads needing something to talk about, this thing has been analyzed and dissected to a point of absurdity. Perhaps it is possible that a sincere effort was made, within the constraints of what the Cardinals could do and it just wasn't even close to what Pujols wants. If that is the case, their hands were tied and this isn't so much a strategy as it is the only route they have. Play out the year and see what offers come in free agency.
If you step back and think about it, Albert is going to have to show his true colors at some time. If he is sincere and the Cards can be in the same ballpark as other suitors, he'll sign with the Cardinals. IF not, he was never going to stay here anyway. It's really not worth getting all worked up about as a fan. You can't control or even influence it. This is big money sports at its best or worst, depending on your point of view.
Personally, I think the dude is out to fill his bank account and his ego. Not saying that is good or bad, it is what it is. He wants to be the highest paid player and he wants piles and piles of cash, no matter what is does to the organization he is playing for. Again, his prerogative. Different things motivate different people. I just look at his statements about wanting to be on a winning team and wanting to remain a Cardinal with a little skepticism now...
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Paul Dallas
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Someone mentioned Pujols in a Cubs uniform. It would hurt to see that, but then I think . . . this would be funny as hell. Highest paid player in baseball playing for the most wretched and cursed team in baseball. One back spasm and whoops there goes another rubber tree plant.
Edited by Paul Dallas (02/17/11 08:18 AM)
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triton
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Loc: ??????????????
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I agree that that amount of money is a lot but it is what it is based on what is being paid. I hate to say it but I have to agree with Dog and LS. There is a 10 day period at the end of the world series where the Cards can revisit and possibly sign AP without interference from other clubs, but if the offers now and they are an insult to AP it could make it even more difficult to sign him.
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H2ODOG
the one who never tires
Reged: 12/22/05
Posts: 10993
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Quote:
sptsman said:
Perhaps it is possible that a sincere effort was made, within the constraints of what the Cardinals could do and it just wasn't even close to what Pujols wants. If that is the case, their hands were tied and this isn't so much a strategy as it is the only route they have. Play out the year and see what offers come in free agency.
Cardinals management tied their own hands and put the rope around their neck. They paid Matt Holliday $17M a year last year....when NO ONE else was interested in him. Then instead of signing Albert to a deal last year, they hoped the market would stay stable or go down.....instead it blew up on them, and blew up BIG. Now since they are the ones saying Holliday is worth $17M, how can they put an offer forward for $19-21M a year for Albert and expect for it to get taken seriously. Pay the man what he is worth. Its simple. He's the best player in baseball.
Holliday only once in his career has had 100+ run and RBI seasons, out of 7 seasons. Albert has accomplished that his entire career except one, and he had 99 Runs that year. Holliday has never won an MVP and only finished 2nd once. #5 has 3 MVP's and 4 2nd place finishes. Matt Holliday has only hit 30+ HR's twice in his career. Albert has hit 30+ HR EVERY YEAR, and hit 40+ in 6 of his 10 seasons. Albert has never struck out 100+ times a season. Holliday has 5 of his 7 seasons, and was close again last season. And most of Holliday's numbers are at hitter friendly Coor's Field. We could go on and on all day long about how Holliday's numbers are no where close to Alberts.
I dont' think he wants to be the highest paid in baseball. I do think he wants a big contract, and I don't blame him for wanting one. But to give him a contract, that barely is the top 10 in baseball, and well below other 1st basemen with far less numbers. I wouldn't even have sent a counter offer either.
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It’s better to be hated for who you are, instead of loved for who you aren’t.
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H2ODOG
the one who never tires
Reged: 12/22/05
Posts: 10993
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Triton....there is only a 5 day window after the end of the WS to get a deal done before he can start shopping around.
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It’s better to be hated for who you are, instead of loved for who you aren’t.
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triton
member
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Loc: ??????????????
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Heard it was a 10 but it was on a local sports thingy
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Bubba
strangesly aroused
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3828
Loc: Lemmingstan
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Heard he is leaning to the Braves!
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DjF
little buddie
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 5410
Loc: staring at an empty mailbox...
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just fyi...I've yet to sign too...
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somewhere between "Hi, how can we help you?" and "Get off my lawn!"
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last_stand
the gay card thrower Call Me Ragnar
Reged: 12/14/05
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Loc: anywhere but "HomeofToto"
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Kevin Slaten of whom I am not a fan just "broke" the news based on a high up source within the Cardinals organization that the Cards offered 21 mil for 8 years for total offer of 168. This was stated as a fact. The source is stated as solid.
If true, imo this offer was plain stupid. I can only assume someone had passed out some window pane down there the day they put their tender together. It's so stupid I would almost have to say it was deliberate and a completely blown opportunity to actually try to sign the guy. It's as if the bean counters down there run marketing, sales and baseball operations.
Whatever their plans, whatever their strategy, whatever their capabilities these goofs better tag Dick the Bruiser and get him outta the ring and bring in some brains.
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Sometimes you got it sometimes you get got.
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griffin
administrator
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 9625
Loc: the most dangerous city in Ame...
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Quote:
last_stand said:
Kevin Slaten of whom I am not a fan just "broke" the news based on a high up source within the Cardinals organization that the Cards offered 21 mil for 8 years for total offer of 168. This was stated as a fact. The source is stated as solid.
If true, imo this offer was plain stupid.
And this right here is the evidence that sports has become FUBAR and ya'll like it that way.
REALLY???? 168 million isn't enough??? SERIOUSLY???
How about this.....KISS MY ASS!!!!!!
Don't make your argument about the market or what someone else makes......you'll make my case better and you'll look dumber.
griffin
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"The Irish are one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever." - Sigmund Freud
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last_stand
the gay card thrower Call Me Ragnar
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 7742
Loc: anywhere but "HomeofToto"
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I wouldn't even wanna look at your azz nevertheless kiss it.
And sports is about as fubar'ed as scores of other industries....you can spend your life b1tchin about them too if you want...and hey, I thought you were a big "go get what you can" guy....or what, is that for smart people only? bwaaaaaaa.
I'm not giving a dissertation on what I like I'm just telling you if true it's a DUMB FRIGGEN OFFER that never had a prayer.
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Sometimes you got it sometimes you get got.
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Paul Dallas
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 1189
Loc: the corner of Bedlam & Squalor
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I'm sick of Pujos before the season even starts. I kinda hope he wrenches his back something awful, then we can all feel sorry for him not taking this dumb friggen low ball offer when he could have. Jesus and Mary.
MLB needs a salary cap like the NFL. Costas wrote a good book on it, go read it. Until then, its all about the major markets. Cardinal Nation is just a Yankee-Red Sox farm team, don't kid yourself. And teams like the Royals . . . . . whew, those billionaire owners are the ones that really need our prayers.
I'll go to my token 2 games per year and be a stand-up citizen of Cardinal Nation, but don't expect me to wear any red trousers to church on Sunday.
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