Jaeger
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 2008
Loc: St. Louis
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Here, argue about it on this thread, and keep it out of my warmongering!
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"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." - President Ronald Reagan
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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See my previous post about your war mongering in the far more interesting wildfire debate in the Iraq thread
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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HB,
read this
http://www.idahostatesman.com/eyepiece/story/136784.html
Damn, when I'm right, I'm right 
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Ozark
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Like with anything - if you want something done badly, inefficiently, and expensively, give it to the government. That's what makes the modern trend of turning more and more things over to government control so bad.
Socialism doesn't work. Private enterprise does work, but it has to be overseen by government to prevent abuses. There's a desirable balance between the two, which I think we pretty well achieved in about the 1950's.
Now the pendulum has swung 'way too far to the left. If it continues going that way, our society and economy will be wrecked as has happened to so many other countries who thought their government should do everything.
Or, hopefully, the pendulum will swing back toward private enterprise at some point - and we'll again be able to enjoy the stability, efficiency, and prosperity that balance produces.
Vote for Republicans who really act like Republicans to make that happen. Unfortunately, they're scarce.
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
The increased levels of carbon and other greenhouse gases are contributing to global warming and the climate changes that are increasing the size and intensity of Western fires, the scientists wrote. American forests account for 20 to 40 percent of all carbon sequestered or captured in the nation.
Is this what you like Lib?
Quote:
The worst fire he's seen burned on the 180,000 acres of forestland he manages for billionaire Tim Blixseth burned only 100 acres in 2003.
It's a far cry from the 708,000 acres burning on national forest lands in Idaho.
Sounds like he's trying to make comparisons that might be out of balance. They also can restrict entry, is that what you want for our public lands? By restricting entry, making the forest look like corn fields with nice even rows of trees, by eliminating any other vegatation, that might sustain wildlife, they can also keep better control, something that makes you west coast libs happy.
Edited by Hellbender (08/19/07 06:36 PM)
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
More than half of the national forest in the state is either roadless or wilderness where access is difficult and the little timber the Forest Service sells costs the federal government more than it returns. Howard Weeks, chief fire warden for the Clearwater Potlatch Timber Protective Association, which is responsible for fire protection on 1 million acres of mixed ownership in northern Idaho, said most of these federal lands would not be suitable for intensive forest management.
Of course if the Dems get in they can throw billions at the problem, and make new liberals like Liberty happy.
Quote:
Most of all, private lands get the highest priority for federal and state firefighting resources in part because they are near communities and forest homes, said Brian Shiplett, the Idaho Department of Lands fire management chief.
"I don't know how many times I've seen dispatchers strip away resources from a growing federal fire to divert them to a new state or private fire," Shiplett said.
But the key to firefighting success for the private forest lands is
Exactly how much of this article did you read Lib?
Edited by Hellbender (08/19/07 06:45 PM)
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
Damn, when I'm right, I'm right
So who do you like, Hillary, Obama, or John? They'll pour some money into the problem that bothers you, they'll also jump on that warming thing, which according to your link is causing fires to be more intensive. Sure happened fast though, didn't it? 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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I've developed an immunity to the bullchit parts of stories and focus on the parts that are correct, intensive management of the forests, that way there aren't six to ten times as many trees per acre ready to go up like a tinder box every summer cuz some damn tree hugger got logging ended in the forest. When you have more trees, you have less moisture per tree, which means you got a firestorm waiting to happen by August every year.
The Global Warming, well we know that's bullchit, but you can't reference an article today that doesn't link it to whatever the hell is happening from a hurricane to fires to your damn baby's stinky ass diaper.
Manage the forests, have them logged, and what part of managed keeps people out of them? Don't have huge expanses that are roadless, open access to all the forest and manage the damn things, that way we don't have areas of forest with six to ten times more trees than were there historically, sucking up all the available moisture by June 1 and then sitting in the summer drying up to two and three percent moisture content.
you're leave it all alone is horsechit, that basically what they've been doing and you see how that has worked
now why is it that we keep setting records for wildland fires each successive years, now a jackass would say global warming and go about his day thinking he contributed to society, I would say we've been doing nothing but shutting down lumber mills over the last 20 years and restricting the ability of national forests to be logged, meanwhile the fuels just increase.
But you haven't been out here since we set a record every year for wildland fire acreage, you left when the chit started to get interesting.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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Now look HB, in taking an article from the Statesman, I took a chance on what happens when a bunch of liberals get a hold of a conservative idea, forest management, logging and thinning. What parts you referenced are an underpaid dumbass liberal trying his best to refute the idea of cutting down trees, because he was taught that was bad, he was never given a reason for why it was bad mind you, but it was drilled into his mush brain that cutting down trees was bad.
Apparently, you had the same teacher.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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And again HB how long are you going to promote the fallacy that the federal government has to spend millions and billions to allow logging in the national forests, all they have to do is get the fuk out the way, the market will take it from there.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"Sounds like he's trying to make comparisons that might be out of balance. They also can restrict entry, is that what you want for our public lands? By restricting entry, making the forest look like corn fields with nice even rows of trees, by eliminating any other vegatation, that might sustain wildlife, they can also keep better control, something that makes you west coast libs happy."---HB
comparisons are out of balance, the feds own too damn much
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hillbilly
member
Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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Lightning and mother nature managed the forests fine for eons. I reckon lightning and mother nature are now just correcting the damage done by man and smokey the bear.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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yeah but man has been managing them for 10,000 years, up until the feds got scared of lawsuits
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
I've developed an immunity to the bullchit parts of stories and focus on the parts that are correct,
Like all the other Starbuck, Honda driving, out of touch Libs, you post an article, and then come back and defend yourself by saying only certain parts are valid, but you very carefully avoid pointing out which you subscribe to.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
And again HB how long are you going to promote the fallacy that the federal government has to spend millions and billions to allow logging in the national forests, all they have to do is get the fuk out the way, the market will take it from there.
WHAT!, why do we have to do anything, why can't we just leave them alone and let people enjoy them? We can cut the number of employees in both the BLM and FS, make some simple rules that address leaving the land somewhat natural and get out of the way.
You on the other hand, like all liberals, want to have people believe that we can simply let the market do it. How would that work? Would we let companies just make a run at the forest in some anarchist form? You know what it would be, the FS and BLM, who holds more lands in trust than the FS does, would explode in the number of employees added to the civil service want not wagon while adding more votes for your Democrats.
I never thought I'd see you turn liberal, must be the air in the Starbucks there. 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"You on the other hand, like all liberals, want to have people believe that we can simply let the market do it."--HB
you have no understanding of the word liberal, when has a liberal ever championed the market? Answer they have never championed the market
Earlier you called me a liberal for calling for logging, when in the hell did a liberal ever call for logging, look if you are going to be in the latter stages of dementia during this debate, please refrain from posting
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"WHAT!, why do we have to do anything, why can't we just leave them alone and let people enjoy them?"--HB
because for the past seven years we've had roughly 56 million acres burn. Forest Service has 67 million acres total nationwide. You can't enjoy a burning forest, they close the roads and the trails and you can't enjoy the damn things because they are burning.
But I love it, you call me a liberal all the while you promote the argument of the Sierra Club
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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here HB, here's your "conservative" argument written out for you by a bunch of granola munchers
http://www.sierraclub.org/forests/fires/healthyforests_initiative.asp
and I'm the liberal for calling for logging to thin the forests that now have six to ten times more trees per acre than they did historically, which decreases the amount of moisture content over the area, because there is that much more biomass in need of moisture to survive, which leads to moisture levels in thousand hours fuels at two and three percent.
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griffin
administrator
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 9625
Loc: the most dangerous city in Ame...
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Too many trees has caused the Earth to warm....leading to more hurricaines and the melting of the polar ice cap...not to mention 5 legged frogs and an increase in skin cancer.
On the plus side, duck numbers are up this year due to an overgrowth of trees.
griffin
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"The Irish are one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever." - Sigmund Freud
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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spot on analysis as usual 
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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stats for HB, federal government owns 671.8 million acres total, including all its buildings, army bases, forest lands, BLM, national parks and monuments.
Since, 1996 71.9 million acres have burned, that's 11 percent of all federal lands (even though some of this is on state lands, federal lands is used for a comparison purpose only here, and by the way that comparison favors you more than me), since 2000 55.1 million acres have burned, that's 8 percent, we're a mere 200,000 acres (Year-to-date) behind last year's record setting year of 9.9 million acres burned. Since 1960, 205.7 million acres burned, that's 31 percent.
So essentially for 36 years (60-95), we burned about 20 percent and then in the last 12 we've burned at better than double that rate in a third of the time. In those 47 years of stats on record, there has never been any 12 year or even a three year stretch that compares to what has happened since 1996 or compares to the last three years or the last four years.
Since 2004 (four years with up to date stats from this year included), we've burned 33.1 million acres, that's five percent of the total federal lands, which is more than double the pace of the previous eight years (96-03).
It takes forests that burn badly, like they have been doing since 2000, 100 years to recover, if they recover with some species of pines, then they recover and are immediately at risk for catastrophic burns as certain pines have a 90-110 year lifespan.
Leaving them alone is not an option. It's an ecological disaster. And considering how many of these fires are not the healthy kind that burn the one and ten hour fuels, but rather fires that burn all the one and ten hour fuels and the thousand hour fuels as well, not leaving any life in their wake, meanwhile they ruin the soil, any clay is fired to pottery in these fires, large expanses of dead stands, charcoal spears sit waiting for the next wind gust to blow down, any usable timber is left standing dead as well as they generally don't let people come in and take any dead usable timber away, which has marketability for about two years after a fire has killed it.
And you stand right there next to the Sierra Club and the huggers and say let's not do anything about it. And call me a liberal to boot, as if that has any merit at all.
What are you, drunk?
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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by the way, the federal government owns a third of the acreage in the country. A third, now factor in all the land the states own and the cities and counties, the only thing the government owns more of is your paycheck.
Pointing to that and saying it is wrong is not a liberal idea, HB. Anyone can see that, why can't you?
here's the stats on what the federal government owns in the states as a percentage of the states, the top 12
Nevada: 91.9%
Alaska 66.7%
Utah 66.5%
Idaho 66.4%
Wyoming 50.6%
Arizona 50.2%
Oregon 49.7%
California 46.9%
Colorado 34.9%
New Mexico: 34.1%
Montana: 31.3%
Washington: 31.0%
16.9 million Americans owe their jobs to the federal government (1999 stats, stats since the Homeland Security are not as clear, but actually more people work for the feds or owe their jobs to the feds now than then)
Federal full-time equivalent civilian employees: 1.9 million
Federal uniformed military personnel: 1.5 million
U.S. postal workers: 0.85 million
Federal grant-created jobs: 2.4 million
State and local mandate-created jobs: 4.7 million
Federal contract-created jobs: 5.6 million
TOTAL: 16.9 million
divide that by the amount of federal lands and they all got their 40 acres now if they'd just get a damn mule and take care of their land. 
I know they can't, you know they can't so the answer lies within the private market, if they'd only just get out of the way and let the people manage OUR lands.
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Funny Lib, typical media hogwash.
Liberal, hey you're the one that wants more federal employees so that more timber can be cut, giving congress more money to spend!
The vast majority of forest fires ( most "forest" fires, aren't trees burning, but brush )are caused by lightening, lightening is a process older than man, as are trees, so your argument that man alone can take care of the forest is a crock of crap.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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griffin
administrator
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 9625
Loc: the most dangerous city in Ame...
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I heard lightning wiped out most of the duck nests this year.
griffin
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"The Irish are one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever." - Sigmund Freud
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"hey you're the one that wants more federal employees so that more timber can be cut, giving congress more money to spend!
The vast majority of forest fires ( most "forest" fires, aren't trees burning, but brush )are caused by lightening, lightening is a process older than man, as are trees, so your argument that man alone can take care of the forest is a crock of crap. "--HB's made up bullchit
I never said anything about more federal employees that's just something you dreamed while smoking yer crack, newsflash HB, crack is a cooked form of cocaine and not yer ass.
Lightning, really, wow you're so friggin' smart, no one knew that lightning has been around that long, we all thought it was the global warming, DUMBASS, thinning the forest will have a dramatic effect on the kind of fires that lightning starts, but you're too damn old and senile to understand that not all forest fires burn alike and they get hotter, k old man, when they've got more fuels, and when you remove the fuel with thinnning practices, k old man, you get a much more beneficial and less damaging fire
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