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dabsAdministrator

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WOW!
      #184262 - 04/26/09 03:56 PM

Typical restrictor plate - but did Edwards take a shot or what :wow:

And then ran to the finish line to git r done!



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hucklburryModerator
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Re: WOW! [Re: dabs]
      #184265 - 04/26/09 04:30 PM

I never disliked Edwards, but I'm a bit of a fan now. run to the finish and not beatch about the wreck. Nice.

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MB2
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Re: WOW! [Re: hucklburry]
      #184271 - 04/26/09 05:14 PM

Quote:

hucklburry said:
I never disliked Edwards, but I'm a bit of a fan now. run to the finish and not beatch about the wreck. Nice.




Uh, he might not have biatched about BK, but his exact words were, "I guess NASCAR will keep putting us in these boxes until someone gets killed," as a reference to the COT.



If they had've given Regen Smith the win over Stewart last year at Dega, and done away with the yellow line rule, you wouldn't have seen that wreck, because there's plenty of room on the track to pass....

The other thing you saw today, is what happens when these drivers finally get new cars figured out. The run at the top of track by 2 cars, several times makes them 10 m.p.h. faster than the rest of the field. THIS, and cars getting airborne, going into the fence, is THE EXACT REASON why we're watching restrictor plate races today. The young ones, simply aren't afraid, but by the sounds of it, Carl was definetly concerned about being impaled on that fence.

By his own admission, it was the FIRST time, he'd EVER flipped a car in his racing career.

Meanwhile, that retard Waltrip sits in the T.V. booth and giggles like a schoolgirl, about how cool it was. Cool is broken jaws, legs and arms for spectators?

Get out the 200 m.p.h. tape, 'cause that's what you need to protect several teeth from a flying carburetor in Alabama!

No, no, no. Cool would be, running a STOCK car again, no freakin' plates!



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Re: WOW! [Re: MB2]
      #184272 - 04/26/09 05:22 PM

no, cool is flat floorin' what they gave you and running it as hard as you can. Someone comes down, someone goes up, they hit. If he doesn't want to get in the box, he can stay home on Sunday. Its his choice, don't go telling me its Nascar's decision that he is in that car. If the driver's didn't like what they were doing, or if they were that concerned, they'd be running some open wheel euro cars....

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Re: WOW! [Re: hucklburry]
      #184273 - 04/26/09 05:31 PM

Quote:

hucklburry said:
no, cool is flat floorin' what they gave you and running it as hard as you can. Someone comes down, someone goes up, they hit. If he doesn't want to get in the box, he can stay home on Sunday. Its his choice, don't go telling me its Nascar's decision that he is in that car. If the driver's didn't like what they were doing, or if they were that concerned, they'd be running some open wheel euro cars....




It, in fact is NA$CAR's decision, when it's the only game there is.

Make 'em stock. Pull the plates. Don't go runnin' to congress when one of your tracks are in trouble.

That's a race. I'm glad I didn't waste my afternoon watching another circus.


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Re: WOW! [Re: MB2]
      #184277 - 04/26/09 05:54 PM

I catch about the last 20 laps in the workshop when the race is on. I couldn't spend 4 hours on a day off just goof-in off.

I don't understand what your saying, a driver has a decision to get in a car or not. Its real simple. Nascar might say, "your driving the car of tomorrow", and then the driver says yes or no. Is that not the way it is?


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Re: WOW! [Re: hucklburry]
      #184279 - 04/26/09 06:03 PM

Quote:

hucklburry said:
I catch about the last 20 laps in the workshop when the race is on. I couldn't spend 4 hours on a day off just goof-in off.

I don't understand what your saying, a driver has a decision to get in a car or not. Its real simple. Nascar might say, "your driving the car of tomorrow", and then the driver says yes or no. Is that not the way it is?




What I'm saying is, that there's really no other sanctioning bodies left, other than NASCAR, in North America. You can't make money in NASCAR's lower series. Formula One and Indy cars are cost prohibitive to get into. A driver HAS to bring major sponsorhip with them, in most cases.

If you want to be a pro driver, in North America, get ready to strap into the C.O.T., whether you want to, or not.


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Re: WOW! [Re: MB2]
      #184344 - 04/27/09 11:00 AM

With the "boxes" comment, was he referring to the COT, or the double yellow line rule? I gathered that he was complaining about the line rule, which of course was the talk of the pre race show (even showing the driver meeting and specifically the NASCAR official talking about the rule) and saying that in effect the wreck was the fault of the rule. No rule, BK would've maybe moved down so that the wreck didn't happen. Course maybe not, cause he probably wasn't thinking a whole lot about giving CE room to possibly take away BKs first win.

CE not only got through that wreck unhurt, but he was in such good shape that he ran across the finish line. Pretty cool move.

Michael McDowell is not dead after last year's qualifying crash. Clint Bowyer and the other guy in the blue car (71 or 72, I don't recall) hit the wall so hard yesterday in the big one that it is amazing they walked away. I've heard and read a lot of bitching about the COT, but I haven't heard safety being cited in that bitching.


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Re: WOW! [Re: Duckv]
      #184352 - 04/27/09 11:29 AM

Quote:

Duckv said:
With the "boxes" comment, was he referring to the COT, or the double yellow line rule? I gathered that he was complaining about the line rule, which of course was the talk of the pre race show (even showing the driver meeting and specifically the NASCAR official talking about the rule) and saying that in effect the wreck was the fault of the rule. No rule, BK would've maybe moved down so that the wreck didn't happen. Course maybe not, cause he probably wasn't thinking a whole lot about giving CE room to possibly take away BKs first win.

CE not only got through that wreck unhurt, but he was in such good shape that he ran across the finish line. Pretty cool move.

Michael McDowell is not dead after last year's qualifying crash. Clint Bowyer and the other guy in the blue car (71 or 72, I don't recall) hit the wall so hard yesterday in the big one that it is amazing they walked away. I've heard and read a lot of bitching about the COT, but I haven't heard safety being cited in that bitching.




"Talladega is short for 'We're going to crash, we just don't know when,"' said Ryan Newman, the third-place finisher, who also recalled Matt Kenseth's fiery tumble in the Nationwide Series race on Saturday.

"We saw that two times this weekend, so maybe we need to look at things that keep the car down on the ground."

Ryan is an engineer.


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Re: WOW! [Re: Duckv]
      #187129 - 06/12/09 03:41 AM

Quote:

Duckv said:
With the "boxes" comment, was he referring to the COT, or the double yellow line rule? I gathered that he was complaining about the line rule, which of course was the talk of the pre race show (even showing the driver meeting and specifically the NASCAR official talking about the rule) and saying that in effect the wreck was the fault of the rule. No rule, BK would've maybe moved down so that the wreck didn't happen. Course maybe not, cause he probably wasn't thinking a whole lot about giving CE room to possibly take away BKs first win.

CE not only got through that wreck unhurt, but he was in such good shape that he ran across the finish line. Pretty cool move.

Michael McDowell is not dead after last year's qualifying crash. Clint Bowyer and the other guy in the blue car (71 or 72, I don't recall) hit the wall so hard yesterday in the big one that it is amazing they walked away. I've heard and read a lot of bitching about the COT, but I haven't heard safety being cited in that bitching.





This explains the physics of the crash much better than I ever could duckv, but basically calls for the same thing. Slow the cars down, by reducing horsepower and pulling the restrictor plates off of them. Whether you watch it live, or on T.V., your eyes aren't quick enough to tell the difference in speed. Speed is relative to how fast others are travelling around you, just like on the freeway....

---------------------------------------------

Talladega Teardown: Roof Flaps and Catch Fences

“You have to understand that, like, for years, we have had wrecks like this every time we come to Talladega ever since the (restrictor) plate got here, and for years, it was celebrated. The media celebrated it, the network celebrated it, calling it the Big One, just trying to attract attention.” –Dale Earnhardt, Jr.

My least favorite part of every Talladega pre-race show used to be watching Elliott Sadler tumbling through the infield. And you know, regardless of which network is carrying the race, they’re going to show a montage of crashes. Most will also show Bobby Allison’s 1987 crash - the one that instigated restrictor plates. Did anyone else have a really sick sense of deja vu watching the 99 car of Carl Edwards go airborne and tumble along the fence?

In both crashes, the cars because airborne and, instead of hitting the wall, the cars ended up in the catchfence. In 1987, Bobby Allison’s car pulled about 100 ft of chain-link fence down and sprayed debris into the crowd. A number of fans were injured, including a woman who lost an eye.

Most of the publicity about track safety has focused on SAFER barriers; however, there are researchers improving catchfences as well and the results were evident Sunday. The 99 rolled along the fence, but if you compare the two incidents, today’s fence did a much better job. Fences have difficult tasks: They have to allow spectators to see while being strong enough to contain a flying racecar. A stock car going 190 mph into a rigid barrier would produce a peak force of about 9700 lbs. The force the catchfence experienced would be less because fences have some give, but that’s still pretty impressive for steel and wire, especially if you look at how the 1987 fence did.

Fans and pundits are calling for NASCAR to ‘fix the car’ so that it stays on the ground. If you watch closely, you’ll notice that the primary safety device that guards against cars going airborne did work. Edwards’ roof flaps deployed and, in fact, you can see the car start to lower when the flaps come all the way up. That’s when the 39 got into him and was just far enough under to send the 99 into the air.

Matt Kenseth took a nasty roll during the Nationwide series race at Talladega on Saturday. In the numerous replays of the accident, I kept looking for the roof flaps rising as the car spun sideways. As far as I can tell, the roof flaps didn’t deploy on his Nationwide car. (NOTE: As Nick points out in the comments, this wasn’t an aerodynamic issue - it was more of a mechanical issue, like a SUV rollover. Thanks to Nick for pointing this out.)

Roof flaps are the two inserts on the top of the car. One runs along a line from left to right and one is angled at 45 degrees to the first, as shown in the figure below (which comes from the original patent #5374098).




Roof flaps (the invention of which I detail in my book The Physics of NASCAR) are designed to keep cars on the ground. Faster-moving air exerts less pressure and slower-moving air exerts more pressure. A wing develops lift because the air flowing under the wing moves slower than the air going over the wing. That creates more pressure underneath the wing than over the wing, which generates a net force upward. You want that for an airplane, but you don’t want it for a race car.

A NASCAR race car is pretty stable when airflow comes from the nose to the tail. The problems start when the car turns sideways because a sideways racecar looks a little too much like a wing. Air flows over the roof of a sideways racecar very quickly. It stays attached to the car’s surface for a long time, and that creates a low pressure region on the top of the car. A little air (or another car) gets under the car and all of a sudden, the car is an airplane. This only happens when the car rotates enough, so you need a solution that only becomes active when the car is really yawed.

You want the air to detach from the car’s roof, which increases the pressure on the top of the car and decreases the lift. That’s where the roof flaps come in. As shown below, the roof flaps are flaps of metal that are normally flush with the roof. If the pressure on the roof gets low enough, the pressure differential between the underside of the flap and the top of the lap causes the roof flap to pop up. A tether keeps the flaps perpendicular to the roof surface until the car gets going the right direction.




There’s an additional bit of help as well from the cowl area - the part of the car where the windshield meets the hood which also has flaps, as shown below.




The central flap is the air intake for the engine and the two piece called out on either side are the cowl flaps. Cowl flaps work the same way as the roof flaps, opening when the pressure on top becomes much lower that the pressure underneath. The opening of the cowl flaps allows air to escape from under the car and that also decreases lift. (The patent number on that one is #5544931.)



“(Drivers) have been saying this for years: racing like this is not a whole lot of fun.” –Dale Earnhardt, Jr.

In my opinion, calls for NASCAR to improve the roof flaps or other aerodynamic components so that they can keep the cars on the ground at Dega and Daytona regardless of circumstances are wrong-headed. NASCAR needs to decrease engine horsepower at the big tracks so that restrictor plates aren’t necessary. Slowing down the cars by making the restrictor plate hole smaller isn’t going to help. Most engine programs already have a totally separate plate engine program, so they’re putting a ton of effort into motors for just those four races already. Decrease the banking a bit, or make the banking different in different corners to introduce a ‘handling aspect’ that is present at Daytona and missing at Talladega. You can’t make the drivers ‘take it easy’, or suggest that changing the yellow line rule is going to solve the problem, because all it takes is a single freak coincidence. If Newman’s car hadn’t been right there, I suspect Carl’s car would have come down and hit more of the SAFER barrier instead of the catchfence. It looks from the most recent reports that the worst injury in the crowd is a broken jaw, but it could have been much, much worse.

What makes good racing? It’s the relative speed, not the absolute speed. If two cars are going nose-to-nose for the win, it’s just as exciting at 170 mph as it is at 190 mph. Does it really matter that much to you? It does to the drivers.

“I don’t know how I’d change this racing. I know it’s a spectacle for everybody and that’s great and all – but it’s not right to ask all these guys to come out and do this. What if the car goes up in the grandstands and kills 25 people? … I don’t know if I could live with myself if I ended up in the grandstands.” –Carl Edwards

NASCAR has a long, long history of being reactive. Here’s an instance in which NASCAR must be proactive and make changes before something really serious happens.

Here’s why I’m optimistic that might actually happen. I realized only recently that NASCAR hired Tom Gideon to be Director of Safety Initiatives for the R and D Center. Tom - someone whose integrity is respected throughout motorsports - was a prime moving force in motorsports safety at GM prior to his retirement. Tom will continue the tradition Steve Peterson started and, I’m sure, bring a number of his own initiatives to the job.


NOTE ADDED 4/28/09: A couple comments on some other reports: First, Reid Spencer reports that the roof flaps popped up in the wrong order; however, that should have very minimal - if any - impact on their function. Roof flaps are designed to disturb the flow of air over the roof of the car, as described above. The faster they deploy, the faster they can do their job. Even if one of the flaps ’stuck’, it’s hard to believe that anything would have prevented the combination of the 09’s wake and the 39’s rapid approach from launching the 99.

“I would assume they just adapted their principles and the locations of the old style car to this new style car when it comes to the roof flaps and the cowl flaps and the things like that,” said Newman, who emphasized the importance of keeping the cars on the pavement.

Second, Ryan Newman has a Bachelor’s degree in vehicle dynamics. That doesn’t make him the authority on everything scientific. To Reid Spencer’s credit, he doesn’t let Newman have the last word. He cites Robin Pemberton, who notes that the roof flaps on the new car are larger to take into account the differing aerodynamics, and Bernie Marcus, Ford’s aerodynamicist, who points out that they did “at least three wind-tunnel tests” looking at differences in roof flap function on the new car. Unless Newman has some prior knowledge, it is arrogant and ignorant to suggest that NASCAR just transferred the roof flap design from the old car to the new car without testing it.

Patrick Canupp, Director of Aerodynamics at Joe Gibbs Racing, notes that he hasn’t seen the test data, but that NASCAR usually tests new car designs “at Lockheed where the yaw table can put the car at nearly any yaw angle.", which means that they were in a position to look at roof flap function over a range of orientations of the car with respect to the airflow. Patrick also points out the most important element here - something that most media coverage glosses over. Engineering is not simple. You’re looking at complex machines and interactions between multiple complex machines. You can’t predict all the possible solutions and, even if you could, “that is still just a simulation of the actual event, whose detailed surface pressure history can be quite different,” Patrick notes.



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Re: WOW! [Re: hucklburry]
      #193769 - 10/11/09 08:34 AM



Talladega raises catchfence: As a safety precaution to protect fans and competitors, Talladega Superspeedway extended the height of its frontstretch catch fence by eight feet, president Rick Humphrey told ESPN.com Monday. The decision was made in reaction to a horrific accident on the final lap of the Aaron's 499 Sprint Cup race on April 29, which sent Carl Edwards' Ford airborne into the previous fencing and sent debris spraying into the grandstands. The fence held up in the crash but was destroyed, creating concern about fan safety at the high-speed 2.66-mile venue. Humphrey and his staff hired an outside engineering firm to survey the damage. It was recommended that the fence height be extended. It stood 14 feet in April. It now stands 22 feet, and the top bows out over the track surface. There are other enhancements to the fence, too, though Humphrey said he is not at liberty to discuss them. "The engineering team we consulted with has that information," he said. "It is proprietary information that they've provided to us. They're okay with the height, that's something to the naked eye you'll certainly be able to see. There are other variables you can't get into."(ESPN.com)(10-6-2009)


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Re: WOW! [Re: MB2]
      #193776 - 10/11/09 03:55 PM

Dang,I thought ya just pressed the long thin pedal to the floor...guess it all got complicated when they started hitting 150 MPH....I miss Bowman-Gray in N.C....played football on the infield on friday/watched races on Sat.

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Re: WOW! [Re: cook]
      #195111 - 10/30/09 04:31 AM

Quote:

cook said:
Dang,I thought ya just pressed the long thin pedal to the floor...guess it all got complicated when they started hitting 150 MPH....I miss Bowman-Gray in N.C....played football on the infield on friday/watched races on Sat.




Sure, sometimes I miss the exhibition grounds in Toronto too, but the idea is to make the sport better, and Dega is full of it's own special quirks. Including that it was built on Indian burial grounds.

Like I said, with the naked eye, you can't much tell the difference between 180 and 200 mph. And, because of all NASCAR's rules with regards to restrictor plate racing, it's no longer the fastest track on the circuit. It's just a plain scarey place for the drivers.....




Approximately, the same spot, where April's accident took place. There's plenty of track to race on....but, if you watch this weekend, watch for a few cars to drive together up near the fence, and see if you can tell how much faster they travel than the pack below them. That's what I look at anyway, and what I believe caused April's wreck.



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Re: WOW! [Re: Duckv]
      #198321 - 01/10/10 05:21 AM

Quote:

Duckv said:
With the "boxes" comment, was he referring to the COT, or the double yellow line rule? I gathered that he was complaining about the line rule, which of course was the talk of the pre race show (even showing the driver meeting and specifically the NASCAR official talking about the rule) and saying that in effect the wreck was the fault of the rule. No rule, BK would've maybe moved down so that the wreck didn't happen. Course maybe not, cause he probably wasn't thinking a whole lot about giving CE room to possibly take away BKs first win.





NASCAR Says Rear Spoilers, Yellow Lines, "No Bumping Zones" May Disappear In 2010: NASCAR's Managing Director Corporate Communications, Ramsey Poston, said Friday that the sanctioning body is investigating the possibility of replacing rear wings with old-style rear spoilers in the NASCAR Sprint Cup Series, in time for the start of the 2010 Daytona 500. However, Poston told Sirius NASCAR Radio's Sirius Speedway with Dave Moody that the change has nothing to do with cars becoming airborne during high speed crashes at the circuits two superspeedways; Daytona and Talladega. "We took a car to the wind tunnel after last year's fall race at Talladega and recreated Ryan Newman's crash to as high a degree as possible," he said. "Those tests showed beyond any doubt that the rear wing had no effect on the way that race car took off. With that said, we talked to 14 different drivers at the NASCAR Technical Center yesterday [Thursday], and all 14 of them were in favor of going back to rear spoilers as a way of increasing downforce and improving competition. As a result of the input we have received from those drivers, and others, I think it's safe to say that we are taking a very serious look at the possibility of reintroducing rear spoilers for the 2010 season." If NASCAR elects to move forward with the change, Poston said the sanctioning body will wind-tunnel test the package almost immediately, before scheduling an on-track test session prior to the start of SpeedWeek 2010. Poston said NASCAR has met with every track operator since the end of last season, along with drivers, owners, crewchiefs and even media partners in an effort to determine what might be done to improve competition, and that the rear wing/spoiler is only one item on the list. "If it helps us improve competition, we will move forward with it," said Poston. "There are other changes that we will announce during the annual Media Tour that I think will be welcomed by everyone; drivers, crewchiefs, team owners and especially fans."



Poston revealed that NASCAR is likely to loosen the reins on drivers next season, saying, "We're going to let the drivers drive." While declining to give specifics prior to the official announcement, it is expected that NASCAR will eliminate the controversial "no bumping zones" at superspeedways, and possibly even the rule prohibiting drivers from racing below a yellow line at the bottom of the banking at both Daytona and Talladega.(Sirius Speedway)(1-9-2010)
-------------------------------------------



Hopefully it is an ADIOS to the stupidest rule of them all!

Why on earth it NASCAR years to finally admit they did something wrong is beyond me. Now for the chase.....

I wonder if they will give Smith his Dega win now....


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Re: WOW! [Re: MB2]
      #198327 - 01/10/10 08:54 AM

Was Dale Sr re-incarnated??

Wrap their ankles so the ants won't eat their candy azzez


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Re: WOW! [Re: 3s]
      #198329 - 01/10/10 12:20 PM

Quote:

3s said:
Was Dale Sr re-incarnated??

Wrap their ankles so the ants won't eat their candy azzez




Well, I don't believe he has been in the form of either Jeff Gordon, Jimmy Johnson or Carl Edwards.

When you look at a wreck you have to be able to think about
more than who's driving. It's also about the car OWNERS, but NASCAR's priorities have to be about FAN safety.

**************

So, where did the good ideas about plate racing come from??: OWNERS.

Owners (with experience in other forms of motorsport) = Tony Stewart and

Owners (insert pukey smiley here) = Mikey Waltrip

Both of them are proteges of Sr.

See what I mean about it being a "Patriarchal Sport"??

***************************

So what's Mikey's contribution to the discussion about rules on plate racing?

Mikey Waltrip, has an idea how to fix 'Dega and Daytona to get rid of the "Follow the Leader" mentality ... give the drivers one point per lap led. No one would want to sit back and follow 'til 10 to go!!

The "OTHER" Option is to do what they used to do in the Indy 500...The Leader was paid $200 Per Lap Lead.

I don't know if they still do that at Indy.

*****************

And, for the Shoot-Out this year, they have invoked "THE JOONYA RULE!"

ANYONE who has won before at DALETONA IS IN!!!

~~*Awaiting the return of Elliott, Schrader and Cope*~~

*****************

Did you know Tiger's caddy is a Saloon Car Champ in New Zealand?


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Re: WOW! [Re: MB2]
      #198359 - 01/11/10 08:43 AM

I thought Jr had already cemented "his" spot due to being a past shootout champ . I mean they were still inviting Busch Clash champs back.

Sure it isn't the "Roush" rule


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Re: WOW! [Re: 3s]
      #198369 - 01/11/10 11:02 AM

Quote:

3s said:
I thought Jr had already cemented "his" spot due to being a past shootout champ . I mean they were still inviting Busch Clash champs back.

Sure it isn't the "Roush" rule




Nope. JOONYA RULE!!!

If they had have invited back the top teams from each manufacturer, like last year, JOONYA would have been S.O.L.


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Re: WOW! [Re: MB2]
      #198909 - 01/21/10 05:02 PM

AND......

They get the BIG PLATE!!!

NASCAR is relaxing some of its rules this season, and encouraging drivers to show more aggression and emotion, in large part to answer a growing fan sentiment that the sport had gone stale.

"There's an age old saying that NASCAR, 'If you ain't rubbing, you ain't racing,' " NASCAR president Mike Helton said Thursday. "I think that's what the NASCAR fan, the NASCAR stakeholders all bought into, and all expect."

The first change will be evident when the season opens next month at Daytona International Speedway, where restrictions on bump-drafting will be lifted and horsepower will be increased by the use of the largest restrictor plate since 1989.

NASCAR had been slowly tightening its tolerance on bumping at Daytona and Talladega -- the two biggest and fastest tracks in the series, where the horsepower-sapping restrictor plates are used to control speeds -- and it graduated into an outright ban issued the morning of the October race at Talladega. The edict sucked the drama out of what's typically one of the most exciting races of the year, and was the final straw for many race fans who had grown tired of watered-down racing.






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Re: WOW! [Re: MB2]
      #198910 - 01/21/10 05:14 PM

AND the wing is gone, replaced by a larger spoiler than what was man-dated last time they carried one.

What Stewart & Vickers said about testing it:

It (the spoiler) was on a bunch. It didn't seem to be a big balance change which was good," Stewart said. "That means you won't have to invent the wheel necessarily. It was a balance shift, but it wasn't a big balance shift. You've got two kinds of grip  you've got aero grip and you've got mechanical grip. The spoiler is the aero grip and the tires are mechanical. The mechanical grip is real important because it doesn't know if you are running first in line or 10th in line. I'm more of a mechanical guy."
"I thought it (spoiler) was good," Vickers said. "I thought it added a little bit of front downforce, which is a good thing. I think it's going to be more accepted to the fans. It looks cooler  a little more retro back to the older car. We haven't been in a lot of traffic yet, so the big question is how it's going to handle in traffic. Theoretically, from what I've been told, the difference between the two is that the spoiler is better in traffic. The spoiler is going to be more efficient in dirty air and a wing will be more efficient in clean air. Once you get in a lot of turbulence, the spoiler's not going to lose a lot of efficiency while a wing really will."


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