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Liberty
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Hellbender
      #123355 - 10/29/07 02:34 PM

thinning the forest saved homes...

Forest thinning helps spare some homes

A federal effort to clear brush and remove trees in the Arrowhead area is controversial but makes a difference.
By David Kelly, Louis Sahagun and Maeve Reston, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
October 25, 2007
LAKE ARROWHEAD -- As flames ravage surrounding communities, this resort town high in the San Bernardino Mountains emerged largely unscathed, an island in a sea of destruction.

The credit for that isolated victory, federal officials say, should go to firefighting tactics, shifting winds and favorable terrain -- and a sometimes controversial U.S. Forest Service effort to eliminate the tinder that fuels forest fires.

Since 2002, the Forest Service has removed millions of trees, thinned brush and cut low-hanging branches, creating fuel breaks around almost 80% of the community. Fires don't spread quickly or easily through such areas, instead burning lower to the ground and with less intensity.

"The fuel breaks saved Lake Arrowhead," said Randall Clauson, the Forest Service's division chief for the San Bernardino National Forest and incident commander earlier this week on the two biggest wildfires still burning in the mountains.

He said he believes that, without the breaks, "the fire would have run right through Lake Arrowhead and gone to Highway 18, cutting off the evacuation route and probably resulting in the loss of hundreds of lives."

But not everyone was convinced that forest-thinning itself played such a pivotal role.

"Thinning and cleanup of surface fuels really does help," said Ken Larson, a fire behavior analyst with the Forest Service, stationed at the fire command post in the San Bernardino Mountains. "But there are many variables at play. Even that may not save structures in the face of extreme winds and extreme conditions."

Still, evidence was dramatic in the thinned forest areas. In one cluster of Lake Arrowhead neighborhoods protected by fuel breaks, only a few stumps were burning and no trees were lost. Hundreds of surrounding homes were untouched.

Some of the worst-hit areas like Running Springs don't have fuel breaks. Just 20% of Big Bear is protected by breaks, fire officials said.

The Forest Service decided that Lake Arrowhead would be first in line for the fuel breaks because it had suffered worst from the bark beetle infestation and drought that killed 90% of its pine trees, turning them into enormous fire hazards.

"We have been doing it like triage," Clauson said. "We started here so we got the most done here."

The work is painstaking, expensive and controversial. Clauson has a budget of $17 million a year to create fuel breaks in the forest and has so far completed 25,000 acres. The goal is 100,000 acres. He still runs into people who object to cutting trees, suspecting it of being clandestine logging.

To gain public acceptance, Clauson spent a year holding meetings, sometimes attending three a week, where he pushed the idea and urged private landowners to thin their trees.

"This has been the first test of this magnitude and I think it has proven its effectiveness," he said.

And yet there is only so much the Forest Service can do. Lake Arrowhead didn't escape unscathed. In Grass Valley, an upscale part of the town about a mile from Lake Arrowhead, more than 100 homes were destroyed. Many had been surrounded by tall trees and lush vegetation left uncleared by the homeowners.

There were scenes of total devastation -- lakeside homes reduced to their foundations, torched cars and, in one house, only a pair of smudged lawn jockeys survived. Power lines littered the ground or hung perilously overhead.

"We can spend $100 million to put fuel breaks around every town up here but if individuals don't take responsibility for their land I can't save them," Clauson said.

Meanwhile, with winds diminishing and humidity rising, firefighters Wednesday stepped up their offensive against the two major fires in the Lake Arrowhead area, shifting their emphasis from protecting structures to encircling the blazes.

Helicopters, air tankers, earth-moving equipment and firefighters -- freed from other Southern California fires that had become less threatening -- were redeployed to San Bernardino Mountains communities including Running Springs and Grass Valley.

"We would like the Grass Valley fire contained and out of our hair; we're going to put a lasso around it," said Pat Farrell, an operations manager for firefighters headquartered at Rim of the World High School along California 18 between Lake Arrowhead and Running Springs.


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Hellbender
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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123360 - 10/29/07 03:28 PM

Quote:

"Thinning and cleanup of surface fuels really does help," said Ken Larson, a fire behavior analyst with the Forest Service, stationed at the fire command post in the San Bernardino Mountains. "But there are many variables at play. Even that may not save structures in the face of extreme winds and extreme conditions."





Quote:

The work is painstaking, expensive and controversial. Clauson has a budget of $17 million a year to create fuel breaks in the forest and has so far completed 25,000 acres. The goal is 100,000 acres.




17 million, 25,000 acres, and 193 million acres to go, then they can start on the BLM. If that doesn't sound like a Liberal plan I don't know what does.

Quote:

And yet there is only so much the Forest Service can do. Lake Arrowhead didn't escape unscathed. In Grass Valley, an upscale part of the town about a mile from Lake Arrowhead, more than 100 homes were destroyed. Many had been surrounded by tall trees and lush vegetation left uncleared by the homeowners.





Hey Rosie.

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Liberty
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Re: Helliberal [Re: Hellbender]
      #123368 - 10/29/07 03:42 PM



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Hellbender
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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123393 - 10/29/07 05:20 PM

So Liberal, what do we get for 100 million?
How many homes were saved by clearing bug killed trees?
Did I ever hint that I gave a rats ass about dead trees killed by some foreign bug?
Did you note that many houses were lost because many home owners sat on their butts, ala, New Awlins!
Why do I have to pay so you or any one else can live in the middle of no where with a great view?
You're like every other liberal, you own something in a precarious place, a place you can't afford to protect so you want me to help you pay for it.


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Liberty
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Re: Helliberal [Re: Hellbender]
      #123403 - 10/29/07 05:40 PM

"Why do I have to pay so you or any one else can live in the middle of no where with a great view?"--Hellbender

as I have said time and time again, I want the work done by the private market and by private individuals, however, your question is a good one, but didn't that horse leave the barn already?


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Hellbender
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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123407 - 10/29/07 05:44 PM

I have a plan for you, sell your tree's, then you won't have to worry, and the people won't have to sell theirs so you can have your own private forest.


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Ozark
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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123424 - 10/29/07 06:25 PM

Driving to town today, I listened to Rush Limbaugh for a few minutes. He was on a subject that made me think of you guys.

He was comparing the history of brush fires over the last 40 years in SOUTHERN California and in BAJA California.

It seems the Mexicans, like with everything else, don't really give a chit about fire prevention or about saving your house if you're dumb enough to build your casa in the brush-covered hills.

Consequently, in Baja they have constant little brush fires that don't threaten structures and get put out eventually - when the firefighters get around to it.

In Southern California they've practiced fire prevention for years and allowed thick brush to grow - then developers build houses in it and people buy those houses. So, when the Santa Ana winds come and the humidity is 4%, there's nothing on earth that can keep a whole bunch of houses from burning down. Sounds to me like a "let the buyer beware" issue.

Amd I think ol' Rush has a point there.


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Liberty
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Re: Helliberal [Re: Ozark]
      #123426 - 10/29/07 06:30 PM

"In Southern California they've practiced fire prevention for years and allowed thick brush to grow"--Ozark

you aren't practicing fire prevention if you allow thick brush to grow


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Liberty
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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123427 - 10/29/07 06:31 PM



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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123428 - 10/29/07 06:32 PM

"Driving to town today, I listened to Rush Limbaugh for a few minutes."--Ozark

Rush agrees with me


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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123436 - 10/29/07 06:49 PM

Quote:

Liberty said:
you aren't practicing fire prevention if you allow thick brush to grow




Well, that's kinda nitpicky - you know what I mean.

The knuckleheads don't allow fires. Not at all, under no circumstances, nada. They'll write a ticket if you burn just one tumbleweed in your backyard. If you burned off, say, 1/2 acre of standing brush on your land - you'd go to jail.

So in a few years the brush gets 8-10 feet tall, so thick you can't get through it, and it's tinder-dry. It HAS to burn from some cause eventually - oh, and then they build and sell houses in it. They cut the brush back around the houses, but that doesn't do any good in a 50 mph wind with flames 50 feet long.

Does that clarify the point?


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Re: Helliberal [Re: Ozark]
      #123441 - 10/29/07 07:27 PM

yeah, you are agreeing with me and Rush that the forests and the nation's public lands need to be thinned, but thinning practices are being hampered by stupid regulations and lawsuits

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Ozark
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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123458 - 10/29/07 09:59 PM

Quote:

Liberty said:
who thinks we can just leave the damn things alone.




Well, the forests were always left alone - before civilization came.

In the 1830's there was a fire, probably caused by lightning, that took a couple of years to burn from California to the Mississippi River. I guess the Indians and wildlife just moved out of the way, no great harm done.

But those kind of fires are what's going to happen if you just leave things alone. We can't stand the damage that would cause now.

Trees are like any other crop - they need to be managed, cared for, and harvested or they'll be wasted.


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Re: Helliberal [Re: Ozark]
      #123481 - 10/29/07 10:56 PM

Quote:

the one we all own a piece of, they ain't done jack chit to the thing in years





Thats because its a forest, not a tree farm.


Ozark they were pointing out that one of the fires, don't remember which, was in an area that hadn't burned in 40 years. The thought was that it should have.

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Liberty
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Re: Helliberal [Re: Hellbender]
      #123511 - 10/30/07 01:39 AM

yeah and one of the major ones burned in an area that just burned in 2003

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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123512 - 10/30/07 01:50 AM

"Trees are like any other crop - they need to be managed, cared for, and harvested or they'll be wasted."--Ozark

Exactly my point all along

though I have to question the fire in the 1830s that burned from California to the Mississippi River, you got a source on that?



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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123573 - 10/30/07 02:20 PM

Quote:

"Trees are like any other crop - they need to be managed, cared for, and harvested or they'll be wasted."--




The problem with that is that the trees in question weren't planted by man. They are a natural part of America that still belongs to all. The fact that some closet liberal wants the government to protect his private property, even if it means taking from the people something that can't be duplicated.
They're no different than deer and turkeys, and you take the land away, take the public access away, and the price of hunting will skyrocket, while the Rosie's will grin all the way to the bank. Rosie's thinking simply mimics Hillary's, disguise benefiting themselves with some BS about doing good for all.

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Re: Helliberal [Re: Hellbender]
      #123590 - 10/30/07 03:25 PM

trees can be replanted

I'm just saying


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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123657 - 10/30/07 08:27 PM

Quote:

yeah, trees can't be replanted you're a forking moron





Which is what they do on tree farms, its still not a natural forest, and if you've really been around you would know they don't even resemble one another.
Fire are natural.

Tell us more Rosie about how the IFS worked, that would be the Indian Forest Service to those not in Rosie's attack circle.

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Re: Helliberal [Re: Hellbender]
      #123681 - 10/30/07 10:03 PM


Forest Stewardship Has Roots
September 18th, 2007

We have emphasized the fact that human beings have been impacting Western landscapes for millennia. We have 64 posts in the Anthropogenic Fire Theory category. In those posts we have presented references to articles, reports, and books by anthropologists, archeologists, historians, ethno-ecologists, other -ologists, and just plain folks with deep knowledge of the past. They all convey the same message: human stewardship not only altered but engendered many of the forests, prairies, and savannas that existed in the West, and indeed across the America?s, when Columbus landed.

Anthropogenic fire maintained and sustained landscapes beneficial to cultures that depended on the fruits of those landscapes for survival. The indigenous peoples learned, likely through trial and error, how to sustain game and edible plants. If they had not, they would not have survived.

If catastrophic fires denuded watersheds and incinerated wildlife over vast tracts (as they do today), the human beings that lived there would have starved or had to move. We from know anthropological research that Native American cultures were not wandering tribes, but rather nations with long established, permanent territories. The members of the Nations sustained the productivity of their territories through traditional environmental management techniques. In the West, the most advantageous and successful techniques involved frequent, regular, seasonal burning.

The public needs to grasp that human beings have always been integral, that our forests are heritage relics of human care. The understanding that our landscapes are CULTURAL and not wild is a key component of the restoration of sustainable forests. To abandon our forests to ?natural? disasters is to throw away the real past.

Human beings have been tending our forests for millennia. That justifies, indeed demands, our tending of our forests today. If we took better care of our forests, we wouldn?t have so many of the other ancillary problems.

It is important for the lay public to understand that stewardship has roots, that stewardship is our inherited responsibility, and that abandonment to wildfire is shirking our responsibilities as human beings.


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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123682 - 10/30/07 10:04 PM


2007 Is Another Record Fire Season
October 30th, 2007

The National Fire Information Center reports this morning that the acreage burned by wildfires in 2007 in the U.S. is now approaching 9.2 million acres.

To date more acres have been burned by wildfires this year than in any since the early 1950?s, save for last year, when 9.7 million acres burned.

This year marks the third year in a row that more than 8 million acres burned and fourth this century. Of the ten worst fire years in post WWII history, seven have occurred since 1995.

Average fire size in 2007 again topped 120 acres per fire for only the second time in modern era. In 2005 the average fire size was 130 acres per fire.

In 2007 there have been 77,000 wildfires nationally. This is far below the 50-year average of 127,000 fires per year. In terms of fire starts, 2007 was a very mild year.

Despite the relatively few fire starts, acreage burned this year is more than twice the 50-year average of 4.5 million acres per year. Average fire size is fully three times the 50-year average of 40 acres per fire.

With only 60 percent of the average fire starts, 2007 should have been a mild fire year. However, due to a national policy of Let It Burn, numerous small fires were allowed (encouraged) to become megafires.

The USFS announced last fall that they intended to burn Idaho severely, and then in the middle of the 2007 fire season declared Idaho forests to be national ?Let It Burn Laboratories.? And Let It Burn they did! Over 2 million acres in Idaho were burned deliberately in this fashion by the USFS, including 1,250 square miles of the erosion-sensitive Idaho Batholith in the Payette, Boise, and Nez Perce National Forests.

Official statistics regarding home and structure incineration have not been released, but at least 2,000 private homes were destroyed this year in Federal fires.

Pronouncements by Federal officials following massive home destruction events have been to blame the homeowners for living too close to mismanaged and holocaust-prone Federal lands.

Solutions proffered to the crisis include the elimination of fire suppression and the condemnation of all private land west of the Mississippi, although how these might put the fires out is unclear to rational observers.

Most Federal officials agree vociferously that the national firefighting community is entirely incompetent at fighting fires, and that the entire nation is at risk from lack of capacity, skill, and general wherewithal on the part of sad-sack stumble-bums in the Federal fire and forest employ.

The Federal Judiciary has moved to dis-rectify this situation by banning the use of fire retardant and jailing fire managers, apparently in the hopes of incinerating whole forests as well as cities and counties in regional firestorms.

It is a very sad situation when government officials do their damnedest to destroy the very country that gave them so much power and riches. Apparently not enough government officials? homes burned down this year, so no particular message was sent by the people to the obsequious arsonists and incendiary plutocrats in charge. That may very well change in the future as more and more burned-out citizens see clearly who and what were actually to blame for their losses.


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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123686 - 10/30/07 10:19 PM

I like this next one considering Hellbender posted up an article by this magazine thinking he had found someone who agrees with him.

Evergreen Is Ever Best
March 26th, 2006

Over the last twenty years there has been one clear, consistent, and surprisingly infallible advocate for forests, Mr. James Petersen of the Evergreen Foundation. Jim is the founder, publisher, and editor of Evergreen Magazine, the voice of the Foundation.

Evergreen Magazine is a step above any other forestry periodical, but occasionally Jim publishes a super issue, one that is truly archival. The latest issue, Winter 2005-2006, is one such ground-breaking, deeply insightful, historic work. Entitled Forestry in Indian Country: Models of Sustainability for Our Nation?s Forests? the new issue examines forestry as practiced by Native Americans on tribal reservations and compares it to forestry practiced on our National Forests. It is a superb collection of essays, expert reports, and stunning photography (many by Larry Workman of the Quinault Nation).

So much is revealed in this issue. The first articles are by outsiders, Euro-American forest scientists with political foci. They seek to impose ?helpful? red-tape bureaucratic burdens on the tribes. They do not mention the interwoven historical nature of the forest and the Indians. Their approach is quite racist and bigoted. Imagine telling people, who have managed their land successfully for thousands of years, how the white man thinks it ought to be done, complete with phony ecology and ?natural? catastrophic fire.

But then the Native American voices are heard in the following articles. So many are so great, it is hard to excerpt the best. We shall make a feeble effort, however. From ?A School of Red Herring? by Gary S. Morishima, Technical Advisor, Quinault Nation:

Tribes have been managing natural resource systems for thousands of years, but protecting tribal legacies for the future is no simple task. The resources that are essential to sustain tribal cultures are coming under relentless attack from a variety of economic and political forces ? To a great extent, these threats stem from the introduction of an invasive species several centuries ago ? Europeans.

From ?Sovereignty, Stewardship, and Sustainability? by Larry Mason, Project Coordinator for the Rural Technology Initiative at the College of Natural Resources, University of Washington:

Tribes are known to have been managers of natural resources for 10,000 years or more. In many areas of the United States, ecosystems found by early European settlers were not virgin wilderness untouched by the hand of man, but were instead forests altered through time by many generations of Natives that burned, pruned, sowed, weeded, tilled, and harvested to meet their requirements for firewood, fish and game, vegetal foods, craft supplies, and building materials. Periodic underburning not only produced desirable vegetative conditions but reduced fuel accumulations that might otherwise sustain intense fire. A severe fire in a tribal territory would have meant not only loss of property, resources, and lives, but also a long-term disaster for the well-being of the community.

From ?The Yakama?s Prescription for Sustainable Forestry? by Markian Petruncio, Ph.D., Administrative Forester, Yakama Nation, and Edwin Lewis, Forest Manager, BIA, Yakama Agency:

Forest restoration implies that a forest will be returned to a prior condition. Nineteenth-century forest conditions on the Yakama Reservation appeared to be more sustainable than present conditions. For example, open pine stands were maintained in a healthy condition by frequent, low-intensity fires. The forestry program [on Yakama Nation lands] is using historic species composition and stand densities as references for restoration of forest health. ? The pathway to sustainable forestry requires proactive management.

From ?The Forest Is In Your Hands? by Nolan Colegrove, Sr., Forest Manager, Hoopa Valley Tribal Council, Forestry Division:

We tended and managed the forest with many tools that were created from nature, but the most effective tool was controlled fire. ? The tending of the forest with the use of fire produced annual crops which provided the daily necessities of the people; but what also occurred, by conducting low intensity burns annually for hundreds of years, was that the condition of the forest was healthy and in balance.

From ?Ecosystem Management and Tribal Self-Governance on the Flathead Indian Reservation, Montana? by Jim Durglo, Forest Manager, Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes:

The Tribes understood that both Indian-lit and lightning fires shaped the forest. Here in the Northern Rockies, fire, more than any other factor except climate, shaped the structure of our forest. It determined the kinds and ages of trees, how close together they grew, and the number and types of openings that existed. ? From the stories of elders, the historical accounts of early Europeans, and the findings of modern scientific research, we know that Indians have been purposefully burning in the area for at least 7,000 years.

The best article, in our opinion, is ?The Gift of Fire? by Germaine White, information and education specialist for the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes of the Flathead Reservation, Montana. She begins by quoting Dr. Stephen J. Pyne, an excellent start. Germaine White?s own words are deeply compelling, too:

As Salish and Pend d?Oreille people, our view of fire was and is quite different from the modern western view. In our tradition, fire is a gift from the Creator brought to us by the animals. We think of it as a blessing, that if used respectfully and in a manner consistent with our traditional knowledge, will enrich our world. This belief explains our long tradition (12,000 years plus) of spring and fall burning ?

On my last trip into the Bob Marshall Wilderness Area with one of our tribal elders, Harriet Whitworth, we followed the trails she had followed seventy years previous with her mother and grandmother, trails her family had followed for multiple generations. When we arrived at Big Prairie on the South Fork of the Flathead River, Harriet described what it was like when she was a little girl. She said it was a big, open, park-like area where there were enormous ponderosa pine trees, an abundance of grass, and many animals ? [with] many clearings, a series of prairies in one place, and Harriet talked of how beautiful it was when she was a child.

Now there is only a little bit of a camp and small prairie or meadow left, and the big pine trees are crowded with Douglas-fir trees. Being there in that place and listening to the stories of how it used to look just a single elder?s lifetime ago showed me in a vivid way what it means to exclude fire from the landscape.




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Hellbender
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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123741 - 10/31/07 11:47 AM

here is what your hero, the SOS forest ( is that reference to Chit on a Shingle or Save our Ship?) administrator say about himself.
Quote:

Waybackwhen, I once belonged to professional associations, political parties, and special interest groups.




Quote:

I?m not a member of anything anymore. This is better for me (no dues)




Quote:

In short, I?m an independent, semi-autodidactic, private, professional forester of long and eclectic practice in the western U.S. All this, plus a small monthly fee, self-qualifies me to blog about forests. I not only have something to say, I have something to teach.




So Lib, do you think this guy is a Conservative?

Quote:

So how did them Mayans, Incans and Aztecs come up with their civilizations Helliberal.




Aren't they a little south of here, most in a Rain Forest?

You realize moron that the Chinooks etc stayed on the river, not the forest. The Shoshone's, along with their first cousins the Ute's, Comanche's and the Apache's roamed over the huge Great Basin and parts of the Rockies. This was an area they couldn't even defend well, much less worry about managing millions of acres of timber and sage.
Rosie you just keep cutting and pasting.

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Hellbender
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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123744 - 10/31/07 11:52 AM

Quote:

more news for Helliberal, the America Helliberal wants is one where the federal government owns more land than they currently do and one where they don't manage the land they have, thereby wasting the natural resource





No dumbass I never advocated buying more land, but now that I think about its a good idea. Lets buy the New Orleans, I'm sure we could buy it for less money than it takes to keep it half dry. We could make it a marine park and call it Atlantis.

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Re: Helliberal [Re: Liberty]
      #123750 - 10/31/07 12:05 PM

Quote:

Evergreen Magazine is a step above any other forestry periodical, but occasionally Jim publishes a super issue, one that is truly archival. The latest issue, Winter 2005-2006, is one such ground-breaking, deeply insightful, historic work. Entitled Forestry in Indian Country: Models of Sustainability for Our Nation?s Forests? the new issue examines forestry as practiced by Native Americans on tribal reservations and compares it to forestry practiced on our National Forests. It is a superb collection of essays, expert reports, and stunning photography (many by Larry Workman of the Quinault Nation).




I thought I would upchuck over this one when I read it, I was blowing coffee through my nose.
In the time I lived in Central Oregon, the Warm Springs reservation had 3 big fires, one was 50,000 acres.

The Quinault lands are a friggin Rain Forest!

Quote:

Our nation is renowned for its magnificent forests and superb salmon and steelhead runs. The dense woods that once provided family longhouses, clothing, baskets and huge ocean going canoes, now supply the raw wood for our handcrafted gift boxes.




Keep it up Rosie.


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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.


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