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JJ McGuire

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110941 - 08/23/07 12:06 PM

I agree, you can't have a forest fire without a forest.

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: JJ McGuire]
      #110943 - 08/23/07 12:07 PM

finally someone with some sense about him

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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111013 - 08/23/07 05:20 PM

Quote:

I agree, you can't have a forest fire without a forest.




Not true JJ, they have them all the time. Most of those in southern Cali are nothing but Manzanitia and sage. Many in parts of Eastern Oregon are scattered Juniper and sage.
Let a media type, like Liberty, get a hold of it and its a major fire.

We already know that fire is now hotter, at least according to Liberty.
He also wants to simply give the trees away to first come. I would imagine Clinton's old buddies, Weyerhauser would love that, now that he got rid of all the independents there's no one left except Georgia Pacific and them capable of gobbling up our forest.

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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.


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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111015 - 08/23/07 05:28 PM

HB latest member of ELF

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111040 - 08/23/07 07:20 PM

"We already know that fire is now hotter, at least according to Liberty."--HB

And everyone else who knows anything about them


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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111041 - 08/23/07 07:23 PM

"Not true JJ, they have them all the time. Most of those in southern Cali are nothing but Manzanitia and sage. Many in parts of Eastern Oregon are scattered Juniper and sage.
Let a media type, like Liberty, get a hold of it and its a major fire."--HB

now what are they in the northern rockies HB and what are they in the Cascades and the Sierras?

if I was concerned about the one and ten hour fuels you errantly believe to be the only thing burning in the west then you might have had a point, but you don't moron, these are the thousand hour fuels going up in smoke, those would be the trees you speak of that you believe are immune to forest fires, there ain't nothing left but stands of charcoal spears, but how would you know you live in Missouri and left the west before the forest fires started to get good, but then again you're an idiot


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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111043 - 08/23/07 07:25 PM

"He also wants to simply give the trees away to first come. I would imagine Clinton's old buddies, Weyerhauser would love that, now that he got rid of all the independents there's no one left except Georgia Pacific and them capable of gobbling up our forest."--HB

Look who's the liberal now, you try to cast me as a liberal and there you are ripping industry and big business and there you are wanting the federal government to continue its mismanagement of the forest

HB, the more you post the more you expose yourself for the closet liberal you really are.

Damn hugger


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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111048 - 08/23/07 08:03 PM

Unlike you, I had a lot of friends who worked in the timber industry, I even spent 2 1/2 years as an electrician in a mill so I understand the impact that the closure had on families who had been working there since the left high school. The closure didn't help them the way real Conservatives expect. Instead of it simply increased the value of the private timber held by Clinton's home state buddies, something you don't understand.
As a real conservative, I support supporting business not to make the value of it higher, but to make everyone with a stake better off. Increasing the capital value does help individuals, but that alone isn't an indication of success for all.
Because you have little to no understanding of whats happening out there, your solution would only appeal to democratic supporting businesses, well and Obama supporters who are one group who actually is more in the dark than you are.

Sorry Rosie, but fires always hot, so hot it will melt steel.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111099 - 08/24/07 01:01 AM

yeah, I don't know anyone involved in the timber industry

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111101 - 08/24/07 01:27 AM

"but fires always hot"--HB

These fires we have had since 2000 in the forests dickweed are burning hotter, plume dominated fires (which you obviously have never seen on your scrub brush ranch full of one and 10 hour fuels) the ones that create the firestorms are the norm in these forests because these forests have six to ten times more trees per acre and are six to ten times more dry and they explode into flames and it is not uncommon for thousands of square miles to be barren wastelands once the fire is through exhausting every available fuel it has.

now as to your Clinton is the boogie man, will you get over that fat irrelevant fuk and his cronies, in case you haven't noticed he has been out of office for seven years now.

And as to your idiotic they would support only democratic supporting businesses then why is it when I interview Republicans, be it land owners or governors or legislators in the west, which I happen to do on a daily basis, they all spout my idea? And why is it that they point to the number of mill closings they have seen in the last 20 years and how those closings due to the lack of logging going on have increased the fuel levels and created fires they have never seen in their lifetimes which they spent entirely in the west. Can you answer that ye who thinks he has a damn clue about anything going on out here...I didn't think so

And why is it that managed private lands don't suffer the catastrophic forest fires, while the federal lands just burn away? You are arguing for the feds to keep control over a situation you admit they can't control, damn liberal.

Perhaps the reason you mention Clinton is because he was in charge when you last set foot in the west, and that was a long time ago, I hear though that dementia can be a biotch.

In case you wondered, Clinton doesn't support thinning the forests, that'd be President Bush who does, or did you not read those links I posted way back.

And if I am so damn liberal, why is it your stance is exactly the same one as all the leftist groups? And mine is the polar opposite? Got any answers...I didn't think so

Can you answer that? You can't, because you haven't and I've given your tired, pathetic argument enough time to make a point, which you've yet to make.

I'm arguing with an idiot, closet-liberal, tree-hugging jackass who doesn't realize that this idiotic let nature take care of nature is a load of bullchit. Anybody who actually lives out here understands that now, with the exception of the granolas. Hey dumbass, man is an integral part of nature.

All your simpleton leave it alone argument is doing is creating vast expanses of destruction. You have no appreciation of the value of a natural resource, you'd rather it burn up and not be used at all. I imagine you feel the same about seeking out energy sources as well, just leave them where they are and let nature take care of nature, damn you're an idiot.

All your simpleton argument leads to is a destruction of the forests, which in turn leads to a destruction of the watersheds, and why? Because you're afraid of capitalism, it scares the hell out of you, freedom scares the hell out of you. And all this time I thought I was talking to an American.

All you accomplish after destroying everything out here in a matter of a couple of decades is you falsely limit the supply of wood products, why don't you start your own damn OPEC for forest products while you are at it.


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JJ McGuire

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111118 - 08/24/07 10:32 AM

Quote:

Hellbender said:
Quote:

I agree, you can't have a forest fire without a forest.




Not true JJ, they have them all the time. Most of those in southern Cali are nothing but Manzanitia and sage. Many in parts of Eastern Oregon are scattered Juniper and sage.
Let a media type, like Liberty, get a hold of it and its a major fire.

We already know that fire is now hotter, at least according to Liberty.
He also wants to simply give the trees away to first come. I would imagine Clinton's old buddies, Weyerhauser would love that, now that he got rid of all the independents there's no one left except Georgia Pacific and them capable of gobbling up our forest.




Well, when the pine barrens over in Jersey catch it is just called a fire. Can't rigthly call a bunch of 20 ft tall scrub pine a forest.

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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: JJ McGuire]
      #111151 - 08/24/07 11:26 AM

Quote:

Can't rigthly call a bunch of 20 ft tall scrub pine a forest.




Liberty could.

There is some good news in all of this, at least according to one left coast expert, for all of you that burn wood you won't need as much this next Winter, wood is now burning hotter.
For your safety be sure and put less wood in the stove because when wood burns hotter you'll obviously need less. If you have trouble keeping warm, contact Liberty for further instructions.

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111329 - 08/24/07 08:57 PM

when you choose to be ignorant, it is called stupidity, HB

Just got back from a large swath of destruction, everything I have said confirmed yet again by those of us who are actually out here


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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111346 - 08/24/07 10:05 PM

And this large swath of destruction was where? It wasn't Warm Springs again was it?

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111434 - 08/25/07 12:50 PM

since you are an idiot, here's something for you to read and not absorb from idahoforests.org

Forest Health:
The next critical issue in Western land management

This year's fire season was, reportedly, the worst in five decades. Hundreds of large and small forest and range fires raged throughout the western United States. Regular fire crews, even supplemented by the military and firefighters from overseas, could do little more than protect structures - and even some historic-buildings were lost.

Why did it happen? What could have been done to prevent it? Can we expect more calamitous fire seasons in the future? Historically, fire was nature's way of renewing the forest. Periodically, relatively small fires created a shifting mosaic of all types of tree cover including patches of seedlings, groups of young trees and open stands of mature groves.

For much of the past century, however, fire has been suppressed on western forests. This has allowed the buildup of massive fuel loads in many areas, fuels just waiting for an errant lightning strike, a tossed cigarette or a forgotten campfire. The U.S. Forest Service estimates some 39 million acres of National Forests in the interior West are at high risk of catastrophic wildfire.

According to a 1999 report by the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO), "...large-scale fire suppression disrupted the historical occurrence of frequent, low-intensity fires, which had periodically removed flammable undergrowth without significantly damaging larger trees. As a result, vegetation has accumulated, creating high levels of fuels for catastrophic wildfires and transforming much of the region into a tinderbox." The number of large wildfires, and of acres burned by them, has increased over the last decade, as have the costs of attempting to put them out. Those who have said this disaster could not have been foreseen or prevented haven't been paying attention. The GAO report was just the latest in a series of warnings that have come from professional foresters and others over the course of the last decade.


"Are our national forests healthy?"

In the winter of 1994-95, Evergreen Magazine devoted an issue to forest fires in the West. The issue was entitled "The West Is Burning Up! Should We Stop These Fires or Should We Let Nature Take Its Course?" Five years later the Winter 2000 issue is entitled "Should We Let Diseased National Forests Die and Bum?"

In the last five years, forest health has remained a major national issue. There have been GAO reports to Congress, a joint report on the health of Idaho forests by the Idaho Department of Lands and the U.S. Forest Service, Congressional hearings, numerous scientific studies and treatises - even a movie about fire fighting pilots.
The U.S. Forest Service was created in 1905 to manage the federal forest reserves which were established time "to im prove and protect the forests within their boundaries, or to secure favorable water flow conditions and provide a continuous supply of timber to citizens." (GAO Report, Forest Service Priorities, June 1999)

In 1910, massive wildfires scorched 3 million acres in Idaho and Montana and 86 people were killed. The public demanded action. Suppressing and aggressively fighting any and all fires on federal forestlands became an unquestioned policy. Almost a century later, the political cause of the day is forest health with public voices across the nation demanding a change. National ad campaigns by environmental activists demand that no logging be allowed in our national forests in order to preserve them for future generations. Management has become a negative term along with logging, grazing, mining and multiple uses.

With more than 39 million of the 192 million acres of the national forest system ripe for catastrophic fires, a debate has raged for almost a decade on whether or not there is a problem and if there is one, how best to handle it.
One might dunk that determining the health of a forest would be easy. However, according to experts, there are 85 different definitions of forest health. The 2000 fire season has stirred the debate with more than six million acres burned along with homes and historic buildings across the West.

"The actions we take will have consequences, just as the political decision in 1910 to fight all fires did...

The number of large wildfires, and of acres burned by them, has increased over the last decade, as have the costs of attempting to put them out. We are at a crossroads. As with many environmental issues, the political sometimes drowns out the scientific. The actions we take will have consequences just as the political decision in 1910 to fight all fires and the policy decision by the Clinton Administration to curtail logging on the national forests have consequences today.

Prior to settlement of the West by Europeans, fires played a role. These fires were moderate and more frequent, burning along the ground and clearing fuel and surplus plant life.


Can ailing forests heal themselves?

The consequences of the decision to exclude fire from the national forests that resulted from the 1910 fires, coupled with the more recent legal and policy decisions to reduce logging and active management on the forest, has given rise to a forest health crisis. Without less intense ground fires and without active management using thinning and logging, the forest has become overloaded with fuel. Fire requires three things: heat, oxygen and fuel. Of the three, only fuel can be controlled by man. More and more scientists are sounding the alarm: our national forests are overgrown. The answer to this forest health problem would seem to be easy. All we need to do is go back to conditions that existed before 1850. If intense fire management has changed our forests, then re-introducing fire should take care of the problem. Right?
Wrong. More and more professional foresters and scientists are challenging the idea that fire is the solution. They question the value of turning back the clock to pre-1850, and even our ability to do that.

Analysis by the Interior Columbia Basin Ecosystem Management Program scientists showed that the acres of federal forestlands at risk of catastrophic fires have tripled in the past century. Now 60% of the federal forests are in danger.
In scientific, peer reviewed studies and testimony before Congress, scientists and foresters call attention to the accumulated fuel. They point out the threat to ecosystem integrity, water quality, habitat and the long-term productivity of the forest if we do not do something to manage the fuel buildup. In 1999, professional foresters in eastern Washington and northern Idaho pointed out: "The severity of wild-fire, epidemic native insect populations and introduced diseases and insects have caused a serious decline in forest health ... Reintroducing fire as the only means of improving forest health is not a viable option." (IESAF 1999)

In 1997, the U.S. Forest Service announced its goal to improve forest health by resolving the problems of uncontrollable, catastrophic wildfires on national forests by the end of fiscal year 2015.
But, according to a 1999 GAO report, the Forest Service lacks adequate data to develop the cohesive strategy it needs. And efforts to reduce accumulated fuels can adversely affect the agency's achievements of other stewardship objectives. For example: "Controlled fires can be used to reduce fuels, but (1) such fires may get out of control, and (2) the smoke they produce can cause significant air pollution. As a result, mechanical methods, including commercial timber harvesting, will often be necessary to remove accumulated fuels. However," the report continues, "mechanical removals are problematic because the Forest Service's (1) incentives tend to focus efforts on areas that may not present the highest fire hazards and (2) timber sales and other contracting procedures are not designed for removing vast amounts of materials with little or no commercial value."


"A cohesive strategy is needed..."

The report says that removing accumulated fuels may cost the forest Service hundreds of millions of dollars per year. "But the problem is so extensive that even this level of effort may not be adequate to prevent many catastrophic fires over the next few decades. This report recommends the development of a cohesive strategy to reduce accumulated fuels on national forests of the interior West in an effort to limit the threat of catastrophic fires."

Such a cohesive strategy, forest experts now believe, will require active management, including commercial harvest. In a report prepared for the Idaho Land Board this year by Professor Jay O'Laughlin, Director of the Idaho Forest, Wildlife and Range Policy Analysis Group, he notes that "...the means of attaining forest restoration goals through active management are logging and prescribed burning, and these methods are not universally accepted. Some people distrust federal land management agencies, programs and projects featuring active management."

O'Laughlin notes that the only two methods of reducing fuel loads on our forest are prescribed fire and logging - and many sites are too heavily choked with small trees and vegetation to use fire without longterm, possibly permanent damage. Fires now bum hotter with more destructive potential than ever before, leaving effects on the terrain and in the soil that can last for generations and can even be permanent.

Other considerations also limit the use of prescribed fire to a fraction of the lands needing treatment. Professor William McKillop of the University of California, Berkeley, notes that "...air quality restrictions and budgetary constraints are major barriers to [fire's] large-scale implementation. In addition, there are limited periods when all of the factors such as fuel loads, moisture, existence of defensible perimeters and weather conditions are at levels appropriate to bum. Furthermore, ...the dangers of fire escapement require crews to stand by and have good access by road...

"Fires now burn hotter and with more destructive potential than ever before..."

What does all this mean for the future of our national forests? It means we can restore them to good health. It means we can provide jobs while protecting clean air and water.

It means, over time, allowing fire to resume its natural role in forest management.
However, none of this can happen if inaction prevails. Professor Robert Nelson teaches, environmental policy at the University of Maryland. He's written a book length critique of the Forest Service. Here's a short excerpt: "The Forest Service in recent years has shown a preference for prescribed burning over mechanical treatment." This has caused several problems, he says. Not least among these is a reluctance to use logging in areas, which aren't suitable for burning.

In other words, if it can't be burned, it's left alone - allowing still more crowding and build-up of fuels. The time has come for action to restore our national forests to health, whether that means to their ancient conditions or something else. Continued inaction will mean more and larger catastrophic fires and the loss of one of our nation's greatest physical assets. It's time for the policy makers, the agencies and the public to become educated on the issues and reach some decisions. The forests are too important to leave to chance.


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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111435 - 08/25/07 12:55 PM

here even someone from the university of washington realizes that the forests need to be thinned

Without thinning the worst is yet to come for fire-prone forests

Some Washington and Oregon eastside forests are crowded with as many as 3,000 trees per acre, putting them at high risk for wildfire. Photo credit: University of Washington
Full size image available through contact

When fires turn eastern Washington and Oregon forests into wastelands, valuable wildlife habitat is lost and it costs between $1,300 and $2,100 per acre in fire-fighting costs, lost buildings, economic suffering by nearby communities and degraded waterways, say University of Washington researchers in a recently published report.

The report attempts for the first time to tally the cost per acre of letting the worst wildfires - the crown fires - burn. It's a needed perspective when considering thinning overly dense stands - work that could cost nearly $600 an acre in some places. So say UW researchers who are offering land owners, wildlife advocates and policy makers a newly tested software package that weighs how much fire danger is reduced against how much it costs to thin out fuels.

The new software integrates several computer programs offered by the U.S. Forest Service - including one that models the way fire can tear through a forest - with a program called the Landscape Management System developed at the UW that predicts such things as how a forest grows and habitat changes after thinning or other forest operations.

On the Okanogan National Forest in Washington and the Fremont National Forest in Oregon, where some of the region's worst fires have occurred in recent years, the most effective treatment tested using the computer software preserved ponderosa pine and western larch, while taking the smallest trees of other species until a targeted density was achieved. This approach typically left between 40 and 100 of the largest trees per acre. The trees removed rarely included any larger than 12 inches in diameter.

Unfortunately, markets are weak or nonexistent for the small diameter trees removed under this scenario. They can't, for instance, be used for lumber. The new software package helps weigh the economics of thinning in such cases to develop the most cost-effective approaches.

"The challenge of developing long-term strategies to reduce wildfire risks across tens of millions of acres of inland west forest is daunting. The information to be considered is complex and the planning process may be formidable," says Larry Mason, lead author of "Investigation of Alternative Strategies for Design, Layout and Administration of Fuel Removal Projects," published by the UW's College of Forest Resources as part of its Rural Technology Initiative.

"We've tried to make the Landscape Management System and its support applications user-friendly so that the general public, as well as professionals, can use it. There is less confusion and distrust if everyone can analyze the various choices for themselves."

The report is available at http://www.ruraltech.org/pubs/reports/fuel_removal/ or by calling 206-543-8684. The Landscape Management System software is available for download at no charge at http://lms.cfr.washington.edu/lms.shtml.

With the UW software, a stand of trees can be "thinned" in various ways and "grown" on a computer. Simulated fires can be "set" to see if the fire remains on the forest floor or finds its way into "ladder" fuels, short trees, shrubs and trees with low-hanging branches. Once a fire makes its way into treetops it can explode into a difficult-to-fight and destructive crown fire.

The most over-all effective treatment as determined by the case studies of the Okanogan and Freemont forests, kept all the ponderosa pine and western larch and then thinned the smallest trees until reaching the target density of 45 square feet of "basal area" per acre. Foresters have long used basal area per acre rather than wood volume or number of trees to describe density. Basal area is determined by calculating the area of the surface across the diameter of every tree at chest height, and then summing the total.

The UW software then analyzed the economics. Where costs of harvesting and hauling are highest - possibly because the wood must be hauled long distances - a contractor could lose an average of $170 per acre. Add the typical $205 an acre the Forest Service says it costs to prepare a thinning contract and the cost per acre is $380.

That's not as prohibitive as Mason and his colleagues expected, but other higher-cost strategies for thinning may cost more than $580 an acre, $375 for harvesting and hauling and $205 to prepare the contract. Where revenue from thinned material isn't enough to cover costs, other forms of support will be needed, the researchers say, which could include:

* More funding for the fledgling Stewardship End Result Contracting, a federal program where it's understood that revenues won't cover the full costs of some restoration projects.
* Greater Forest Service flexibility to package restoration jobs so the contractor makes some money.
* Development of new infrastructure to use small-diameter forest biomass to generate electricity.

"We are attempting to deal with a problem that has taken a century to create," says Bruce Lippke, UW professor and director of the Rural Technology Initiative.

"Before Europeans arrived there were typically 30 to 60 large trees per acre in the Okanogan and Fremont national forests. Today the average is 1,000 trees per acre and in some places it's as high as 3,000 trees. More than three-fourths of these two national forests are considered at high to moderate risk for crown fires, and both are fairly representative of forests in the Intermountain West from Canada to Arizona and New Mexico. Selected forest management activities can return forests to prior healthy conditions while providing economic opportunities for rural communities."

While UW researchers totaled up the costs of such things as fire-fighting and lost buildings and timber for this study, they weren't able to put a price tag on environmental costs that include loss of wildlife habitat and the release of tons of carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas, to the atmosphere as a forest burns.

"While the cost of acting may be high; the cost of doing nothing is greater," Lippke says. "Even an upper-end cost of $580 an acre for difficult-to-treat forests pales compared to the cost of a fire."


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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111436 - 08/25/07 12:55 PM

you say do nothing, yeah that's an answer

what a dumbass


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111441 - 08/25/07 01:11 PM

and here's another since you want a continuation of government owned and managed land

from the National Center of Policy Analysis, this is an executive summary, since I know you aren't one to read

The United States was founded on the principle of private property ownership as the ultimate guarantor of individual liberty and prosperity. Yet, more than 40 percent of the land is owned by government, and the federal government controls ocean resources within 200 miles of the coast.

Unfortunately, government has poorly managed the public's natural resources. It has been unable to balance public land uses, such as logging and recreation, with preservation of lands in their original state. Because of shifting priorities, national parks and forests have at times been either overused or neglected. As a result, public lands have been degraded and the wildlife that depends on them destroyed. Government efforts to regulate ocean resources have been even more schizophrenic, simultaneously subsidizing commercial fishing while imposing restrictions to halt declining fish populations.

National Parks. Too many people using anything will destroy it, and national parks ? many of which are ecologically fragile ? are no exception. The National Park Service has maintained low or no entrance fees to encourage the maximum number of visitors, but this has led to overuse and insufficient funds for properly maintaining roads and facilities. It has suppressed natural fires ? while spending billions of dollars fighting forest fires. And since deer, elk, pronghorn sheep and bison are popular park attractions, such predators as wolves and bears were hunted and trapped.

The Park Service has been successful in attracting visitors (287 million people in 1999) and increasing the number of grazing animals ? but at a high price.

* In the most popular parks, visitors regularly complain of air pollution from automobiles, cars interfering with scenic views and traffic jams hampering the natural experience.
* The absence of predators to regulate populations and periodic fires to stimulate plant growth led to an overpopulation of grazing animals.
* In Yellowstone, elk have almost entirely driven out deer, bighorn and pronghorn sheep, and even beaver populations, or pushed them into poorer habitats, leaving them prey to disease and boom-and-bust population cycles.

In contrast, individuals and private organizations have a long history of protecting environmentally valuable lands. For instance:

* The Audubon Society maintains more than 100 sanctuaries and nature centers comprising more than 300,000 acres.
* The Nature Conservancy protects and maintains 15 million acres in the United States in nearly 1,400 private preserves ? an area greater than the states of Connecticut, Delaware, New Jersey and Rhode Island combined.

National Forests. Like national parks, national forests have also suffered from conflicting management goals and environmental degradation. Logging and the roads built to access timber have often been environmentally destructive. For instance:

* In the Northern Rockies, some trout and salmon streams have been severely damaged by several feet of silt or mud runoff from logging roads and clear cuts.
* Road construction created inroads for exotic, often harmful species of wildlife, plants and parasites.

The Forest Service has also tried the "let-nature-take-its-course" approach by designating roadless areas and limiting logging. But the forests' health has continued to decline because they are overcrowded with too many living, dying and dead trees:

* Historically, large ponderosa pines grew in stands of 20 to 55 trees per acre in the Western national forests; today they grow in densities of 300 to 900 trees per acre.
* National forests in California have an estimated 10 to 20 times more trees than is "natural."

When forests become too dense they are more susceptible to disease and infestations. Keeping the number of trees per acre at an optimal level helps regrowth and biodiversity by allowing sunlight to reach the forest floor. Overcrowding also increases the likelihood and severity of fires. According to Forest Service figures, 60 percent of national forest land is unhealthy and faces an abnormal fire hazard. And of the more than 90 million acres at high risk for catastrophic fires, 14 million acres are designated roadless areas, where access is limited.

Bureaucratic paralysis often infects federal forest management efforts. For example, after a forest fire in California burned both public and private land:

* The Forest Service removed dead trees and other fuels from only 1,206 acres and replanted 230 acres in the 27,000-acre Lassen National Forest.
* Only 181 acres of the more than 28,000 acres in the Plumas National Forest were reforested.

By contrast:

* Private foresters reduced the chance of a future catastrophic wildfire by removing 30,633 tons of dry material, enough to fuel 3,600 homes for a year.
* They harvested enough larger dead trees to build 4,300 homes.
* And they spent millions of dollars to reforest the burned land, planting nearly one million seedlings of seven different tree species.

Private organizations have also successfully managed forested land for multiple uses. For example, North Maine Woods, Inc., a land management trust, owns almost 3.5 million acres and allows both logging and recreation:

* The trust maintains 17 access checkpoints on roadways where visitors register, pay a small fee and obtain permits for campsites.
* The fees, comparable to those at local government parks, along with profits from logging operations, are used to maintain roadways, improve campsites and clean up litter.

Ocean Fisheries. There has been a rapid and unprecedented decline in American and world fisheries under government regulation. In the 1960s, the government began subsidizing fishing through grants, tax breaks and below-market loans that resulted in more fishers chasing fewer fish.

* In the past 50 years, populations of large fish species ? including tuna, swordfish, cod, halibut and flounder ? have decreased 90 percent worldwide.
* The National Marine Fisheries Service lists 98 species as overfished.
* Due to overfishing, half of all U.S. fisheries, and a quarter of the major fish stocks worldwide, are in jeopardy of an abrupt, severe, irreversible decline.

While government-operated fisheries are declining, privately owned fisheries have prospered. For example, of the 133 million tons harvested from inland and ocean fisheries in 2003, 40 million came from aquaculture, or private fish farms and hatcheries. The four U.S. ocean fisheries that have been privatized now have smaller fishing fleets, higher incomes for fishermen, and larger, healthier fish stocks.

Ownership in Action. The concept of ownership can be extended to public lands and ocean fisheries. For example, some federal lands could be sold or auctioned off to private parties (individuals, companies or nonprofit organizations). Or management could be transferred to congressionally-approved boards or to states or counties that have demonstrated superior economic and environmental performance.

As for fisheries, financial incentives to overharvest marine resources should be eliminated and replaced with property-based solutions that create incentives for conservation. A system of tradable rights, called individual transferable quotas (ITQs), could be implemented, entitling fishermen to a certain portion of the catch.

Where strict private property rights cannot be established, new markets can be created or economic incentives can be brought to bear on the management of the resources in question in order to improve the environment.


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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111442 - 08/25/07 01:12 PM

let me know when you finally get your head out of your ass HB

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Bubba
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111443 - 08/25/07 01:22 PM

Liberty , is it worth all that....

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111444 - 08/25/07 01:25 PM

Now HB, can you please inform everyone of the brilliance of your leave them alone plan? And while you are at it, what is wrong with selective thinning? Can you explain to everyone why it is so wrong to take out an overabundance of trees, because we all know you are older than dirt and must have lived in the time when the trees were 50 to 100 per acre rather than how they are now up to 3,000 trees?

Obviously you like our national forests that are so thick with tiny trees ready to explode when some pine needles catch fire below. Obviously you like to see miles on end of nothing but black spears of dead trees.


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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111445 - 08/25/07 01:27 PM

Bubba,

You don't live out here, you don't have to breathe the damn air, you don't have to go to your favorite fishing spot and have to wonder if the next wiff of wind is going to drop a dead stand on your head. You don't have to watch as the rivers fill up with ash and sediment that kill off all the damn salmon and steelhead, so yes it is worth all of that.


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Bubba
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111447 - 08/25/07 01:32 PM

Well then , by all means.....

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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Bubba]
      #111457 - 08/25/07 02:13 PM

Quote:

And this large swath of destruction was where? It wasn't Warm Springs again was it?




Well!!

A few points Lib, without plagiarizing some others work.
3000 trees per acre is not wildlife habitat, in fact some of the best habitat comes after a burn. The bottom line is that I seriously doubt that there is anyplace on the east side with trees that thick. I hunted all over the east side of Oregon and I never saw anything remotely resembling that. The fact is Ponderosa'a, because of there growth habits would literally prevent that.
I lived on the dry side of the Cascades for 13 of the last 20 you're so fond of mentioning, I also lived in the country out among 'em, not in some concrete jungle with a TV view of nature.
There are places on the west side that probably are that way, in fact before thinning most private tree farms are that way. Its part of the farming plan, something you probably don't have a clue about.

You sit in front of a PC hundreds of miles away from the real timber country and then say that I don't know what I'm talking about, but I've been all over that east side, smelled the smoke, (something you probably don't do, but it makes good print), seen the glow on the sky at night and the lines of firefighting equipment on the roads. When you go into the real woods however you don't see the hyped up damage that people like you invent, you see some burnt trees, but mostly you see lots of grass, and healthy trees with some blackened trunks up 4-5 feet.
You're a "Johnny come Lately" to the area and an instant authority on forest health, in your mind.

Again, where was that wide swath of destruction? Surely if it was that bad you wouldn't forget where it was.

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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111463 - 08/25/07 02:59 PM

let's see, how many places in that post are you wrong, all of them, I live in the wilderness, something you never did, you lived in a desert and now you live in a convalescence home in Missouri going in and out of consciousness, I flew into Idaho, they took me into the Boise and Payette forests, where more than 400,000 acres were presently burning, flew over the Middle Fork and South Fork of the Salmon River miles and miles of black poles and ashen ground.

Care to ask anymore jackass


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