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JaegerModerator
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Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you!
      #107315 - 08/02/07 01:59 PM

Here, argue about it on this thread, and keep it out of my warmongering!

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Jaeger]
      #107349 - 08/02/07 04:28 PM

See my previous post about your war mongering in the far more interesting wildfire debate in the Iraq thread

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110073 - 08/19/07 12:55 PM

HB,

read this

http://www.idahostatesman.com/eyepiece/story/136784.html

Damn, when I'm right, I'm right


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Ozark
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110076 - 08/19/07 02:08 PM

Like with anything - if you want something done badly, inefficiently, and expensively, give it to the government. That's what makes the modern trend of turning more and more things over to government control so bad.

Socialism doesn't work. Private enterprise does work, but it has to be overseen by government to prevent abuses. There's a desirable balance between the two, which I think we pretty well achieved in about the 1950's.

Now the pendulum has swung 'way too far to the left. If it continues going that way, our society and economy will be wrecked as has happened to so many other countries who thought their government should do everything.

Or, hopefully, the pendulum will swing back toward private enterprise at some point - and we'll again be able to enjoy the stability, efficiency, and prosperity that balance produces.

Vote for Republicans who really act like Republicans to make that happen. Unfortunately, they're scarce.


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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110106 - 08/19/07 06:27 PM

Quote:

The increased levels of carbon and other greenhouse gases are contributing to global warming and the climate changes that are increasing the size and intensity of Western fires, the scientists wrote. American forests account for 20 to 40 percent of all carbon sequestered or captured in the nation.



Is this what you like Lib?

Quote:

The worst fire he's seen burned on the 180,000 acres of forestland he manages for billionaire Tim Blixseth burned only 100 acres in 2003.

It's a far cry from the 708,000 acres burning on national forest lands in Idaho.





Sounds like he's trying to make comparisons that might be out of balance. They also can restrict entry, is that what you want for our public lands? By restricting entry, making the forest look like corn fields with nice even rows of trees, by eliminating any other vegatation, that might sustain wildlife, they can also keep better control, something that makes you west coast libs happy.



Edited by Hellbender (08/19/07 06:36 PM)


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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #110108 - 08/19/07 06:41 PM

Quote:

More than half of the national forest in the state is either roadless or wilderness where access is difficult and the little timber the Forest Service sells costs the federal government more than it returns. Howard Weeks, chief fire warden for the Clearwater Potlatch Timber Protective Association, which is responsible for fire protection on 1 million acres of mixed ownership in northern Idaho, said most of these federal lands would not be suitable for intensive forest management.




Of course if the Dems get in they can throw billions at the problem, and make new liberals like Liberty happy.

Quote:

Most of all, private lands get the highest priority for federal and state firefighting resources in part because they are near communities and forest homes, said Brian Shiplett, the Idaho Department of Lands fire management chief.

"I don't know how many times I've seen dispatchers strip away resources from a growing federal fire to divert them to a new state or private fire," Shiplett said.

But the key to firefighting success for the private forest lands is





Exactly how much of this article did you read Lib?



Edited by Hellbender (08/19/07 06:45 PM)


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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #110109 - 08/19/07 06:46 PM



Quote:

Damn, when I'm right, I'm right



So who do you like, Hillary, Obama, or John? They'll pour some money into the problem that bothers you, they'll also jump on that warming thing, which according to your link is causing fires to be more intensive. Sure happened fast though, didn't it?

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #110148 - 08/20/07 12:07 AM

I've developed an immunity to the bullchit parts of stories and focus on the parts that are correct, intensive management of the forests, that way there aren't six to ten times as many trees per acre ready to go up like a tinder box every summer cuz some damn tree hugger got logging ended in the forest. When you have more trees, you have less moisture per tree, which means you got a firestorm waiting to happen by August every year.

The Global Warming, well we know that's bullchit, but you can't reference an article today that doesn't link it to whatever the hell is happening from a hurricane to fires to your damn baby's stinky ass diaper.

Manage the forests, have them logged, and what part of managed keeps people out of them? Don't have huge expanses that are roadless, open access to all the forest and manage the damn things, that way we don't have areas of forest with six to ten times more trees than were there historically, sucking up all the available moisture by June 1 and then sitting in the summer drying up to two and three percent moisture content.

you're leave it all alone is horsechit, that basically what they've been doing and you see how that has worked

now why is it that we keep setting records for wildland fires each successive years, now a jackass would say global warming and go about his day thinking he contributed to society, I would say we've been doing nothing but shutting down lumber mills over the last 20 years and restricting the ability of national forests to be logged, meanwhile the fuels just increase.

But you haven't been out here since we set a record every year for wildland fire acreage, you left when the chit started to get interesting.


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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110150 - 08/20/07 12:12 AM

Now look HB, in taking an article from the Statesman, I took a chance on what happens when a bunch of liberals get a hold of a conservative idea, forest management, logging and thinning. What parts you referenced are an underpaid dumbass liberal trying his best to refute the idea of cutting down trees, because he was taught that was bad, he was never given a reason for why it was bad mind you, but it was drilled into his mush brain that cutting down trees was bad.

Apparently, you had the same teacher.


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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110151 - 08/20/07 12:13 AM

And again HB how long are you going to promote the fallacy that the federal government has to spend millions and billions to allow logging in the national forests, all they have to do is get the fuk out the way, the market will take it from there.

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110170 - 08/20/07 11:01 AM

"Sounds like he's trying to make comparisons that might be out of balance. They also can restrict entry, is that what you want for our public lands? By restricting entry, making the forest look like corn fields with nice even rows of trees, by eliminating any other vegatation, that might sustain wildlife, they can also keep better control, something that makes you west coast libs happy."---HB

comparisons are out of balance, the feds own too damn much


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hillbilly
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110172 - 08/20/07 11:21 AM

Lightning and mother nature managed the forests fine for eons. I reckon lightning and mother nature are now just correcting the damage done by man and smokey the bear.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: hillbilly]
      #110176 - 08/20/07 11:34 AM

yeah but man has been managing them for 10,000 years, up until the feds got scared of lawsuits

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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110264 - 08/20/07 05:03 PM

Quote:

I've developed an immunity to the bullchit parts of stories and focus on the parts that are correct,




Like all the other Starbuck, Honda driving, out of touch Libs, you post an article, and then come back and defend yourself by saying only certain parts are valid, but you very carefully avoid pointing out which you subscribe to.


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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110267 - 08/20/07 05:13 PM

Quote:

And again HB how long are you going to promote the fallacy that the federal government has to spend millions and billions to allow logging in the national forests, all they have to do is get the fuk out the way, the market will take it from there.




WHAT!, why do we have to do anything, why can't we just leave them alone and let people enjoy them? We can cut the number of employees in both the BLM and FS, make some simple rules that address leaving the land somewhat natural and get out of the way.
You on the other hand, like all liberals, want to have people believe that we can simply let the market do it. How would that work? Would we let companies just make a run at the forest in some anarchist form? You know what it would be, the FS and BLM, who holds more lands in trust than the FS does, would explode in the number of employees added to the civil service want not wagon while adding more votes for your Democrats.
I never thought I'd see you turn liberal, must be the air in the Starbucks there.

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #110278 - 08/20/07 06:08 PM

"You on the other hand, like all liberals, want to have people believe that we can simply let the market do it."--HB

you have no understanding of the word liberal, when has a liberal ever championed the market? Answer they have never championed the market

Earlier you called me a liberal for calling for logging, when in the hell did a liberal ever call for logging, look if you are going to be in the latter stages of dementia during this debate, please refrain from posting


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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110279 - 08/20/07 06:13 PM

"WHAT!, why do we have to do anything, why can't we just leave them alone and let people enjoy them?"--HB

because for the past seven years we've had roughly 56 million acres burn. Forest Service has 67 million acres total nationwide. You can't enjoy a burning forest, they close the roads and the trails and you can't enjoy the damn things because they are burning.

But I love it, you call me a liberal all the while you promote the argument of the Sierra Club


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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110280 - 08/20/07 06:21 PM

here HB, here's your "conservative" argument written out for you by a bunch of granola munchers

http://www.sierraclub.org/forests/fires/healthyforests_initiative.asp

and I'm the liberal for calling for logging to thin the forests that now have six to ten times more trees per acre than they did historically, which decreases the amount of moisture content over the area, because there is that much more biomass in need of moisture to survive, which leads to moisture levels in thousand hours fuels at two and three percent.


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griffinAdministrator
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110282 - 08/20/07 06:30 PM

Too many trees has caused the Earth to warm....leading to more hurricaines and the melting of the polar ice cap...not to mention 5 legged frogs and an increase in skin cancer.

On the plus side, duck numbers are up this year due to an overgrowth of trees.

griffin

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: griffin]
      #110284 - 08/20/07 06:35 PM

spot on analysis as usual

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110366 - 08/21/07 02:37 AM

stats for HB, federal government owns 671.8 million acres total, including all its buildings, army bases, forest lands, BLM, national parks and monuments.

Since, 1996 71.9 million acres have burned, that's 11 percent of all federal lands (even though some of this is on state lands, federal lands is used for a comparison purpose only here, and by the way that comparison favors you more than me), since 2000 55.1 million acres have burned, that's 8 percent, we're a mere 200,000 acres (Year-to-date) behind last year's record setting year of 9.9 million acres burned. Since 1960, 205.7 million acres burned, that's 31 percent.

So essentially for 36 years (60-95), we burned about 20 percent and then in the last 12 we've burned at better than double that rate in a third of the time. In those 47 years of stats on record, there has never been any 12 year or even a three year stretch that compares to what has happened since 1996 or compares to the last three years or the last four years.

Since 2004 (four years with up to date stats from this year included), we've burned 33.1 million acres, that's five percent of the total federal lands, which is more than double the pace of the previous eight years (96-03).

It takes forests that burn badly, like they have been doing since 2000, 100 years to recover, if they recover with some species of pines, then they recover and are immediately at risk for catastrophic burns as certain pines have a 90-110 year lifespan.

Leaving them alone is not an option. It's an ecological disaster. And considering how many of these fires are not the healthy kind that burn the one and ten hour fuels, but rather fires that burn all the one and ten hour fuels and the thousand hour fuels as well, not leaving any life in their wake, meanwhile they ruin the soil, any clay is fired to pottery in these fires, large expanses of dead stands, charcoal spears sit waiting for the next wind gust to blow down, any usable timber is left standing dead as well as they generally don't let people come in and take any dead usable timber away, which has marketability for about two years after a fire has killed it.

And you stand right there next to the Sierra Club and the huggers and say let's not do anything about it. And call me a liberal to boot, as if that has any merit at all.

What are you, drunk?


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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110367 - 08/21/07 02:39 AM

by the way, the federal government owns a third of the acreage in the country. A third, now factor in all the land the states own and the cities and counties, the only thing the government owns more of is your paycheck.

Pointing to that and saying it is wrong is not a liberal idea, HB. Anyone can see that, why can't you?

here's the stats on what the federal government owns in the states as a percentage of the states, the top 12

Nevada: 91.9%
Alaska 66.7%
Utah 66.5%
Idaho 66.4%
Wyoming 50.6%
Arizona 50.2%
Oregon 49.7%
California 46.9%
Colorado 34.9%
New Mexico: 34.1%
Montana: 31.3%
Washington: 31.0%

16.9 million Americans owe their jobs to the federal government (1999 stats, stats since the Homeland Security are not as clear, but actually more people work for the feds or owe their jobs to the feds now than then)

Federal full-time equivalent civilian employees: 1.9 million
Federal uniformed military personnel: 1.5 million
U.S. postal workers: 0.85 million
Federal grant-created jobs: 2.4 million
State and local mandate-created jobs: 4.7 million
Federal contract-created jobs: 5.6 million

TOTAL: 16.9 million

divide that by the amount of federal lands and they all got their 40 acres now if they'd just get a damn mule and take care of their land.

I know they can't, you know they can't so the answer lies within the private market, if they'd only just get out of the way and let the people manage OUR lands.


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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110445 - 08/21/07 04:04 PM

Funny Lib, typical media hogwash.

Liberal, hey you're the one that wants more federal employees so that more timber can be cut, giving congress more money to spend!
The vast majority of forest fires ( most "forest" fires, aren't trees burning, but brush )are caused by lightening, lightening is a process older than man, as are trees, so your argument that man alone can take care of the forest is a crock of crap.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #110468 - 08/21/07 04:29 PM

I heard lightning wiped out most of the duck nests this year.

griffin

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: griffin]
      #110513 - 08/21/07 06:45 PM

"hey you're the one that wants more federal employees so that more timber can be cut, giving congress more money to spend!
The vast majority of forest fires ( most "forest" fires, aren't trees burning, but brush )are caused by lightening, lightening is a process older than man, as are trees, so your argument that man alone can take care of the forest is a crock of crap. "--HB's made up bullchit

I never said anything about more federal employees that's just something you dreamed while smoking yer crack, newsflash HB, crack is a cooked form of cocaine and not yer ass.

Lightning, really, wow you're so friggin' smart, no one knew that lightning has been around that long, we all thought it was the global warming, DUMBASS, thinning the forest will have a dramatic effect on the kind of fires that lightning starts, but you're too damn old and senile to understand that not all forest fires burn alike and they get hotter, k old man, when they've got more fuels, and when you remove the fuel with thinnning practices, k old man, you get a much more beneficial and less damaging fire


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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110517 - 08/21/07 07:41 PM

Quote:

thinning the forest will have a dramatic effect on the kind of fires that lightning starts,




Yup, I think thats what lightening does.

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #110521 - 08/21/07 08:42 PM

don't make me come back to Missouri and kick yer ass old man

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110540 - 08/21/07 10:45 PM

It was a lightening fire, in a very thin forest, that caused the demise of the dinosaurs.

griffin

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: griffin]
      #110555 - 08/21/07 11:42 PM

everybody knows that the last generation of dinosaurs were all gay and that's what caused their demise

lightning fire, please, man what you smokin'


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110556 - 08/21/07 11:44 PM

It was a very thin dinosaur, in a forest fire, that caused the demise of lightening.

griffin

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: griffin]
      #110557 - 08/21/07 11:49 PM

Man, everybody knows lightning went on strike when it found out the flaming thin dinosaurs in the forest were all gay

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110559 - 08/22/07 12:01 AM

It was a very thin lightening strike, on a dinosaur, that caused the demise of the forest.

griffin

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: griffin]
      #110562 - 08/22/07 12:10 AM

demise caused the forest to strike dinosaur lightning thin

get it straight


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duko™
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110601 - 08/22/07 01:44 AM

can one of you administrators please get liberty a fire marshal Bill avatar?

duko


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: duko™]
      #110602 - 08/22/07 01:52 AM

Smokey the bear, with a tear in his eye.

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Paul Dallas]
      #110614 - 08/22/07 05:41 AM

yeah gay dinosaurs was a sad deal all the way around

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110615 - 08/22/07 05:46 AM

" most "forest" fires, aren't trees burning, but brush "--HB

that's where you are wrong, and now we get back to the fires are burning hotter now, because they are burning the thousand hour fuels, too, but I am not going to explain it to you and duko again, the two of you geniuses with your forestry degrees who reside in friggin' Missouri not even affected by the smoke from the fires


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110620 - 08/22/07 08:15 AM

Thousand hour fuels are going because fire has been withheld from the system. Let it burn and get back to a more natural state. Man will never clear out enough fuel that would offset the damage from him being there to begin with. Over stocked forests are all part of survival of the fittest. We should be logging where it is commercially and ecologically sound. However, I'm sure you would enjoy your back country hikes much more with a house on every forty.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: hillbilly]
      #110623 - 08/22/07 08:51 AM

there's a serious flaw to the argument that says do nothing, it's the same flaw that leads to the argument that man is the reason for the destruction of the planet and that is the absence of the fact that man is an integral part of the environment. Name another species of mammal as widely spread throughout the globe as man, now how can you formulate an argument that extracts man from the very environment in which he lives?

"Thousand hour fuels are going because fire has been withheld from the system."--Hillbilly

that has been a regular thesis in that we fought fires and suppressed them too quickly and moving on from that one of the consequences, as well as the lack of lumber extraction from the forests, was that our forests now have six to ten times more trees per acre than they did historically, removing these fuels actually gets the forests back to where they were historically.

I haven't called for a house on every forty. Though public ownership of the forests has proven to be woefully inadequate, to assume that private ownership is somehow flawed assumes that the very people who formulated the policies that created public ownership of large tracts of lands would all be given to immediately bulldozing the lands for a profit and that is simply not true. Not to mention the economic feasibility roadblocks that the very terrain creates in most of these lands, let's face it, if these lands were developable, don't you think the vast resources available to the so called Robber Barons of the 19th century when there was lackluster government regulation, that those lands would have been developed?

You can't extract man from his environment and the entire globe is his environment. Therefore any solution must consider mankind. And man can thin the forests and create a healthier situation. Will there be unintended consequences, sure there will, but there always are with any decision that is made and leaving them alone in my estimation has greater unintended consequences, plus it disregards the fact that man will not leave it alone, there will be some attempt to manage them, why not manage them correctly?


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110629 - 08/22/07 10:01 AM

Quote:

Name another species of mammal as widely spread throughout the globe as man,




Rodents.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110640 - 08/22/07 10:39 AM

Quote:

Liberty said:
Name another species of mammal as widely spread throughout the globe as man




Lizards

griffin

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: griffin]
      #110648 - 08/22/07 11:24 AM

HB,

rodents are an order of mammals, not a species

Griffin,

lay off the smack in the morning


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110668 - 08/22/07 01:06 PM

Mice!

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110672 - 08/22/07 01:11 PM

Quote:

the two of you geniuses with your forestry degrees who reside in friggin' Missouri not even affected by the smoke from the fires






You can't chit me Lib, I know where you're at and that ain't wood smoke.
You move to the left coast and 10 minutes later you're liberal with all the answers.
There's know way you can start a massive cutting of timber without biologist, cruisers, scalers, and a ton of support people, all with there own green vehicle.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #110682 - 08/22/07 01:48 PM

chit I could go out tomorrow and take out some serious forest long before anyone would know what happened

you call me liberal again dementia boy and I'm going to have you placed in a home


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110686 - 08/22/07 02:05 PM

Potential arsonist at loose on the West Coast.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Mel]
      #110693 - 08/22/07 02:26 PM

I was actually thinking of using a chainsaw, but good catch Mel, one day you can be a full fledged sheriff's department junior sheriff with a tin badge and certificate of authenticity

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110781 - 08/22/07 08:49 PM

Quote:

you call me liberal again dementia boy and I'm going to have you placed in a home




Increase the size of the gubment=Liberal.

If the shoe fits...............................

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #110784 - 08/22/07 08:56 PM



duko


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: duko™]
      #110867 - 08/23/07 02:10 AM

increase the size of government by telling them to get the hell out of the way--yeah that makes sense, HB, you're brilliant, now a conservative like me supposedly grows the government by getting them the hell out of the way, with logic like that, I'm sure you've gone far in life.

you and duko need to give each other reach arounds to celebrate your combined intellectual juggernaut status


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #110941 - 08/23/07 12:06 PM

I agree, you can't have a forest fire without a forest.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: JJ McGuire]
      #110943 - 08/23/07 12:07 PM

finally someone with some sense about him

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111013 - 08/23/07 05:20 PM

Quote:

I agree, you can't have a forest fire without a forest.




Not true JJ, they have them all the time. Most of those in southern Cali are nothing but Manzanitia and sage. Many in parts of Eastern Oregon are scattered Juniper and sage.
Let a media type, like Liberty, get a hold of it and its a major fire.

We already know that fire is now hotter, at least according to Liberty.
He also wants to simply give the trees away to first come. I would imagine Clinton's old buddies, Weyerhauser would love that, now that he got rid of all the independents there's no one left except Georgia Pacific and them capable of gobbling up our forest.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111015 - 08/23/07 05:28 PM

HB latest member of ELF

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111040 - 08/23/07 07:20 PM

"We already know that fire is now hotter, at least according to Liberty."--HB

And everyone else who knows anything about them


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111041 - 08/23/07 07:23 PM

"Not true JJ, they have them all the time. Most of those in southern Cali are nothing but Manzanitia and sage. Many in parts of Eastern Oregon are scattered Juniper and sage.
Let a media type, like Liberty, get a hold of it and its a major fire."--HB

now what are they in the northern rockies HB and what are they in the Cascades and the Sierras?

if I was concerned about the one and ten hour fuels you errantly believe to be the only thing burning in the west then you might have had a point, but you don't moron, these are the thousand hour fuels going up in smoke, those would be the trees you speak of that you believe are immune to forest fires, there ain't nothing left but stands of charcoal spears, but how would you know you live in Missouri and left the west before the forest fires started to get good, but then again you're an idiot


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111043 - 08/23/07 07:25 PM

"He also wants to simply give the trees away to first come. I would imagine Clinton's old buddies, Weyerhauser would love that, now that he got rid of all the independents there's no one left except Georgia Pacific and them capable of gobbling up our forest."--HB

Look who's the liberal now, you try to cast me as a liberal and there you are ripping industry and big business and there you are wanting the federal government to continue its mismanagement of the forest

HB, the more you post the more you expose yourself for the closet liberal you really are.

Damn hugger


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111048 - 08/23/07 08:03 PM

Unlike you, I had a lot of friends who worked in the timber industry, I even spent 2 1/2 years as an electrician in a mill so I understand the impact that the closure had on families who had been working there since the left high school. The closure didn't help them the way real Conservatives expect. Instead of it simply increased the value of the private timber held by Clinton's home state buddies, something you don't understand.
As a real conservative, I support supporting business not to make the value of it higher, but to make everyone with a stake better off. Increasing the capital value does help individuals, but that alone isn't an indication of success for all.
Because you have little to no understanding of whats happening out there, your solution would only appeal to democratic supporting businesses, well and Obama supporters who are one group who actually is more in the dark than you are.

Sorry Rosie, but fires always hot, so hot it will melt steel.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111099 - 08/24/07 01:01 AM

yeah, I don't know anyone involved in the timber industry

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111101 - 08/24/07 01:27 AM

"but fires always hot"--HB

These fires we have had since 2000 in the forests dickweed are burning hotter, plume dominated fires (which you obviously have never seen on your scrub brush ranch full of one and 10 hour fuels) the ones that create the firestorms are the norm in these forests because these forests have six to ten times more trees per acre and are six to ten times more dry and they explode into flames and it is not uncommon for thousands of square miles to be barren wastelands once the fire is through exhausting every available fuel it has.

now as to your Clinton is the boogie man, will you get over that fat irrelevant fuk and his cronies, in case you haven't noticed he has been out of office for seven years now.

And as to your idiotic they would support only democratic supporting businesses then why is it when I interview Republicans, be it land owners or governors or legislators in the west, which I happen to do on a daily basis, they all spout my idea? And why is it that they point to the number of mill closings they have seen in the last 20 years and how those closings due to the lack of logging going on have increased the fuel levels and created fires they have never seen in their lifetimes which they spent entirely in the west. Can you answer that ye who thinks he has a damn clue about anything going on out here...I didn't think so

And why is it that managed private lands don't suffer the catastrophic forest fires, while the federal lands just burn away? You are arguing for the feds to keep control over a situation you admit they can't control, damn liberal.

Perhaps the reason you mention Clinton is because he was in charge when you last set foot in the west, and that was a long time ago, I hear though that dementia can be a biotch.

In case you wondered, Clinton doesn't support thinning the forests, that'd be President Bush who does, or did you not read those links I posted way back.

And if I am so damn liberal, why is it your stance is exactly the same one as all the leftist groups? And mine is the polar opposite? Got any answers...I didn't think so

Can you answer that? You can't, because you haven't and I've given your tired, pathetic argument enough time to make a point, which you've yet to make.

I'm arguing with an idiot, closet-liberal, tree-hugging jackass who doesn't realize that this idiotic let nature take care of nature is a load of bullchit. Anybody who actually lives out here understands that now, with the exception of the granolas. Hey dumbass, man is an integral part of nature.

All your simpleton leave it alone argument is doing is creating vast expanses of destruction. You have no appreciation of the value of a natural resource, you'd rather it burn up and not be used at all. I imagine you feel the same about seeking out energy sources as well, just leave them where they are and let nature take care of nature, damn you're an idiot.

All your simpleton argument leads to is a destruction of the forests, which in turn leads to a destruction of the watersheds, and why? Because you're afraid of capitalism, it scares the hell out of you, freedom scares the hell out of you. And all this time I thought I was talking to an American.

All you accomplish after destroying everything out here in a matter of a couple of decades is you falsely limit the supply of wood products, why don't you start your own damn OPEC for forest products while you are at it.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111118 - 08/24/07 10:32 AM

Quote:

Hellbender said:
Quote:

I agree, you can't have a forest fire without a forest.




Not true JJ, they have them all the time. Most of those in southern Cali are nothing but Manzanitia and sage. Many in parts of Eastern Oregon are scattered Juniper and sage.
Let a media type, like Liberty, get a hold of it and its a major fire.

We already know that fire is now hotter, at least according to Liberty.
He also wants to simply give the trees away to first come. I would imagine Clinton's old buddies, Weyerhauser would love that, now that he got rid of all the independents there's no one left except Georgia Pacific and them capable of gobbling up our forest.




Well, when the pine barrens over in Jersey catch it is just called a fire. Can't rigthly call a bunch of 20 ft tall scrub pine a forest.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: JJ McGuire]
      #111151 - 08/24/07 11:26 AM

Quote:

Can't rigthly call a bunch of 20 ft tall scrub pine a forest.




Liberty could.

There is some good news in all of this, at least according to one left coast expert, for all of you that burn wood you won't need as much this next Winter, wood is now burning hotter.
For your safety be sure and put less wood in the stove because when wood burns hotter you'll obviously need less. If you have trouble keeping warm, contact Liberty for further instructions.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111329 - 08/24/07 08:57 PM

when you choose to be ignorant, it is called stupidity, HB

Just got back from a large swath of destruction, everything I have said confirmed yet again by those of us who are actually out here


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111346 - 08/24/07 10:05 PM

And this large swath of destruction was where? It wasn't Warm Springs again was it?

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111434 - 08/25/07 12:50 PM

since you are an idiot, here's something for you to read and not absorb from idahoforests.org

Forest Health:
The next critical issue in Western land management

This year's fire season was, reportedly, the worst in five decades. Hundreds of large and small forest and range fires raged throughout the western United States. Regular fire crews, even supplemented by the military and firefighters from overseas, could do little more than protect structures - and even some historic-buildings were lost.

Why did it happen? What could have been done to prevent it? Can we expect more calamitous fire seasons in the future? Historically, fire was nature's way of renewing the forest. Periodically, relatively small fires created a shifting mosaic of all types of tree cover including patches of seedlings, groups of young trees and open stands of mature groves.

For much of the past century, however, fire has been suppressed on western forests. This has allowed the buildup of massive fuel loads in many areas, fuels just waiting for an errant lightning strike, a tossed cigarette or a forgotten campfire. The U.S. Forest Service estimates some 39 million acres of National Forests in the interior West are at high risk of catastrophic wildfire.

According to a 1999 report by the U.S. General Accounting Office (GAO), "...large-scale fire suppression disrupted the historical occurrence of frequent, low-intensity fires, which had periodically removed flammable undergrowth without significantly damaging larger trees. As a result, vegetation has accumulated, creating high levels of fuels for catastrophic wildfires and transforming much of the region into a tinderbox." The number of large wildfires, and of acres burned by them, has increased over the last decade, as have the costs of attempting to put them out. Those who have said this disaster could not have been foreseen or prevented haven't been paying attention. The GAO report was just the latest in a series of warnings that have come from professional foresters and others over the course of the last decade.


"Are our national forests healthy?"

In the winter of 1994-95, Evergreen Magazine devoted an issue to forest fires in the West. The issue was entitled "The West Is Burning Up! Should We Stop These Fires or Should We Let Nature Take Its Course?" Five years later the Winter 2000 issue is entitled "Should We Let Diseased National Forests Die and Bum?"

In the last five years, forest health has remained a major national issue. There have been GAO reports to Congress, a joint report on the health of Idaho forests by the Idaho Department of Lands and the U.S. Forest Service, Congressional hearings, numerous scientific studies and treatises - even a movie about fire fighting pilots.
The U.S. Forest Service was created in 1905 to manage the federal forest reserves which were established time "to im prove and protect the forests within their boundaries, or to secure favorable water flow conditions and provide a continuous supply of timber to citizens." (GAO Report, Forest Service Priorities, June 1999)

In 1910, massive wildfires scorched 3 million acres in Idaho and Montana and 86 people were killed. The public demanded action. Suppressing and aggressively fighting any and all fires on federal forestlands became an unquestioned policy. Almost a century later, the political cause of the day is forest health with public voices across the nation demanding a change. National ad campaigns by environmental activists demand that no logging be allowed in our national forests in order to preserve them for future generations. Management has become a negative term along with logging, grazing, mining and multiple uses.

With more than 39 million of the 192 million acres of the national forest system ripe for catastrophic fires, a debate has raged for almost a decade on whether or not there is a problem and if there is one, how best to handle it.
One might dunk that determining the health of a forest would be easy. However, according to experts, there are 85 different definitions of forest health. The 2000 fire season has stirred the debate with more than six million acres burned along with homes and historic buildings across the West.

"The actions we take will have consequences, just as the political decision in 1910 to fight all fires did...

The number of large wildfires, and of acres burned by them, has increased over the last decade, as have the costs of attempting to put them out. We are at a crossroads. As with many environmental issues, the political sometimes drowns out the scientific. The actions we take will have consequences just as the political decision in 1910 to fight all fires and the policy decision by the Clinton Administration to curtail logging on the national forests have consequences today.

Prior to settlement of the West by Europeans, fires played a role. These fires were moderate and more frequent, burning along the ground and clearing fuel and surplus plant life.


Can ailing forests heal themselves?

The consequences of the decision to exclude fire from the national forests that resulted from the 1910 fires, coupled with the more recent legal and policy decisions to reduce logging and active management on the forest, has given rise to a forest health crisis. Without less intense ground fires and without active management using thinning and logging, the forest has become overloaded with fuel. Fire requires three things: heat, oxygen and fuel. Of the three, only fuel can be controlled by man. More and more scientists are sounding the alarm: our national forests are overgrown. The answer to this forest health problem would seem to be easy. All we need to do is go back to conditions that existed before 1850. If intense fire management has changed our forests, then re-introducing fire should take care of the problem. Right?
Wrong. More and more professional foresters and scientists are challenging the idea that fire is the solution. They question the value of turning back the clock to pre-1850, and even our ability to do that.

Analysis by the Interior Columbia Basin Ecosystem Management Program scientists showed that the acres of federal forestlands at risk of catastrophic fires have tripled in the past century. Now 60% of the federal forests are in danger.
In scientific, peer reviewed studies and testimony before Congress, scientists and foresters call attention to the accumulated fuel. They point out the threat to ecosystem integrity, water quality, habitat and the long-term productivity of the forest if we do not do something to manage the fuel buildup. In 1999, professional foresters in eastern Washington and northern Idaho pointed out: "The severity of wild-fire, epidemic native insect populations and introduced diseases and insects have caused a serious decline in forest health ... Reintroducing fire as the only means of improving forest health is not a viable option." (IESAF 1999)

In 1997, the U.S. Forest Service announced its goal to improve forest health by resolving the problems of uncontrollable, catastrophic wildfires on national forests by the end of fiscal year 2015.
But, according to a 1999 GAO report, the Forest Service lacks adequate data to develop the cohesive strategy it needs. And efforts to reduce accumulated fuels can adversely affect the agency's achievements of other stewardship objectives. For example: "Controlled fires can be used to reduce fuels, but (1) such fires may get out of control, and (2) the smoke they produce can cause significant air pollution. As a result, mechanical methods, including commercial timber harvesting, will often be necessary to remove accumulated fuels. However," the report continues, "mechanical removals are problematic because the Forest Service's (1) incentives tend to focus efforts on areas that may not present the highest fire hazards and (2) timber sales and other contracting procedures are not designed for removing vast amounts of materials with little or no commercial value."


"A cohesive strategy is needed..."

The report says that removing accumulated fuels may cost the forest Service hundreds of millions of dollars per year. "But the problem is so extensive that even this level of effort may not be adequate to prevent many catastrophic fires over the next few decades. This report recommends the development of a cohesive strategy to reduce accumulated fuels on national forests of the interior West in an effort to limit the threat of catastrophic fires."

Such a cohesive strategy, forest experts now believe, will require active management, including commercial harvest. In a report prepared for the Idaho Land Board this year by Professor Jay O'Laughlin, Director of the Idaho Forest, Wildlife and Range Policy Analysis Group, he notes that "...the means of attaining forest restoration goals through active management are logging and prescribed burning, and these methods are not universally accepted. Some people distrust federal land management agencies, programs and projects featuring active management."

O'Laughlin notes that the only two methods of reducing fuel loads on our forest are prescribed fire and logging - and many sites are too heavily choked with small trees and vegetation to use fire without longterm, possibly permanent damage. Fires now bum hotter with more destructive potential than ever before, leaving effects on the terrain and in the soil that can last for generations and can even be permanent.

Other considerations also limit the use of prescribed fire to a fraction of the lands needing treatment. Professor William McKillop of the University of California, Berkeley, notes that "...air quality restrictions and budgetary constraints are major barriers to [fire's] large-scale implementation. In addition, there are limited periods when all of the factors such as fuel loads, moisture, existence of defensible perimeters and weather conditions are at levels appropriate to bum. Furthermore, ...the dangers of fire escapement require crews to stand by and have good access by road...

"Fires now burn hotter and with more destructive potential than ever before..."

What does all this mean for the future of our national forests? It means we can restore them to good health. It means we can provide jobs while protecting clean air and water.

It means, over time, allowing fire to resume its natural role in forest management.
However, none of this can happen if inaction prevails. Professor Robert Nelson teaches, environmental policy at the University of Maryland. He's written a book length critique of the Forest Service. Here's a short excerpt: "The Forest Service in recent years has shown a preference for prescribed burning over mechanical treatment." This has caused several problems, he says. Not least among these is a reluctance to use logging in areas, which aren't suitable for burning.

In other words, if it can't be burned, it's left alone - allowing still more crowding and build-up of fuels. The time has come for action to restore our national forests to health, whether that means to their ancient conditions or something else. Continued inaction will mean more and larger catastrophic fires and the loss of one of our nation's greatest physical assets. It's time for the policy makers, the agencies and the public to become educated on the issues and reach some decisions. The forests are too important to leave to chance.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111435 - 08/25/07 12:55 PM

here even someone from the university of washington realizes that the forests need to be thinned

Without thinning the worst is yet to come for fire-prone forests

Some Washington and Oregon eastside forests are crowded with as many as 3,000 trees per acre, putting them at high risk for wildfire. Photo credit: University of Washington
Full size image available through contact

When fires turn eastern Washington and Oregon forests into wastelands, valuable wildlife habitat is lost and it costs between $1,300 and $2,100 per acre in fire-fighting costs, lost buildings, economic suffering by nearby communities and degraded waterways, say University of Washington researchers in a recently published report.

The report attempts for the first time to tally the cost per acre of letting the worst wildfires - the crown fires - burn. It's a needed perspective when considering thinning overly dense stands - work that could cost nearly $600 an acre in some places. So say UW researchers who are offering land owners, wildlife advocates and policy makers a newly tested software package that weighs how much fire danger is reduced against how much it costs to thin out fuels.

The new software integrates several computer programs offered by the U.S. Forest Service - including one that models the way fire can tear through a forest - with a program called the Landscape Management System developed at the UW that predicts such things as how a forest grows and habitat changes after thinning or other forest operations.

On the Okanogan National Forest in Washington and the Fremont National Forest in Oregon, where some of the region's worst fires have occurred in recent years, the most effective treatment tested using the computer software preserved ponderosa pine and western larch, while taking the smallest trees of other species until a targeted density was achieved. This approach typically left between 40 and 100 of the largest trees per acre. The trees removed rarely included any larger than 12 inches in diameter.

Unfortunately, markets are weak or nonexistent for the small diameter trees removed under this scenario. They can't, for instance, be used for lumber. The new software package helps weigh the economics of thinning in such cases to develop the most cost-effective approaches.

"The challenge of developing long-term strategies to reduce wildfire risks across tens of millions of acres of inland west forest is daunting. The information to be considered is complex and the planning process may be formidable," says Larry Mason, lead author of "Investigation of Alternative Strategies for Design, Layout and Administration of Fuel Removal Projects," published by the UW's College of Forest Resources as part of its Rural Technology Initiative.

"We've tried to make the Landscape Management System and its support applications user-friendly so that the general public, as well as professionals, can use it. There is less confusion and distrust if everyone can analyze the various choices for themselves."

The report is available at http://www.ruraltech.org/pubs/reports/fuel_removal/ or by calling 206-543-8684. The Landscape Management System software is available for download at no charge at http://lms.cfr.washington.edu/lms.shtml.

With the UW software, a stand of trees can be "thinned" in various ways and "grown" on a computer. Simulated fires can be "set" to see if the fire remains on the forest floor or finds its way into "ladder" fuels, short trees, shrubs and trees with low-hanging branches. Once a fire makes its way into treetops it can explode into a difficult-to-fight and destructive crown fire.

The most over-all effective treatment as determined by the case studies of the Okanogan and Freemont forests, kept all the ponderosa pine and western larch and then thinned the smallest trees until reaching the target density of 45 square feet of "basal area" per acre. Foresters have long used basal area per acre rather than wood volume or number of trees to describe density. Basal area is determined by calculating the area of the surface across the diameter of every tree at chest height, and then summing the total.

The UW software then analyzed the economics. Where costs of harvesting and hauling are highest - possibly because the wood must be hauled long distances - a contractor could lose an average of $170 per acre. Add the typical $205 an acre the Forest Service says it costs to prepare a thinning contract and the cost per acre is $380.

That's not as prohibitive as Mason and his colleagues expected, but other higher-cost strategies for thinning may cost more than $580 an acre, $375 for harvesting and hauling and $205 to prepare the contract. Where revenue from thinned material isn't enough to cover costs, other forms of support will be needed, the researchers say, which could include:

* More funding for the fledgling Stewardship End Result Contracting, a federal program where it's understood that revenues won't cover the full costs of some restoration projects.
* Greater Forest Service flexibility to package restoration jobs so the contractor makes some money.
* Development of new infrastructure to use small-diameter forest biomass to generate electricity.

"We are attempting to deal with a problem that has taken a century to create," says Bruce Lippke, UW professor and director of the Rural Technology Initiative.

"Before Europeans arrived there were typically 30 to 60 large trees per acre in the Okanogan and Fremont national forests. Today the average is 1,000 trees per acre and in some places it's as high as 3,000 trees. More than three-fourths of these two national forests are considered at high to moderate risk for crown fires, and both are fairly representative of forests in the Intermountain West from Canada to Arizona and New Mexico. Selected forest management activities can return forests to prior healthy conditions while providing economic opportunities for rural communities."

While UW researchers totaled up the costs of such things as fire-fighting and lost buildings and timber for this study, they weren't able to put a price tag on environmental costs that include loss of wildlife habitat and the release of tons of carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas, to the atmosphere as a forest burns.

"While the cost of acting may be high; the cost of doing nothing is greater," Lippke says. "Even an upper-end cost of $580 an acre for difficult-to-treat forests pales compared to the cost of a fire."


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111436 - 08/25/07 12:55 PM

you say do nothing, yeah that's an answer

what a dumbass


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111441 - 08/25/07 01:11 PM

and here's another since you want a continuation of government owned and managed land

from the National Center of Policy Analysis, this is an executive summary, since I know you aren't one to read

The United States was founded on the principle of private property ownership as the ultimate guarantor of individual liberty and prosperity. Yet, more than 40 percent of the land is owned by government, and the federal government controls ocean resources within 200 miles of the coast.

Unfortunately, government has poorly managed the public's natural resources. It has been unable to balance public land uses, such as logging and recreation, with preservation of lands in their original state. Because of shifting priorities, national parks and forests have at times been either overused or neglected. As a result, public lands have been degraded and the wildlife that depends on them destroyed. Government efforts to regulate ocean resources have been even more schizophrenic, simultaneously subsidizing commercial fishing while imposing restrictions to halt declining fish populations.

National Parks. Too many people using anything will destroy it, and national parks ? many of which are ecologically fragile ? are no exception. The National Park Service has maintained low or no entrance fees to encourage the maximum number of visitors, but this has led to overuse and insufficient funds for properly maintaining roads and facilities. It has suppressed natural fires ? while spending billions of dollars fighting forest fires. And since deer, elk, pronghorn sheep and bison are popular park attractions, such predators as wolves and bears were hunted and trapped.

The Park Service has been successful in attracting visitors (287 million people in 1999) and increasing the number of grazing animals ? but at a high price.

* In the most popular parks, visitors regularly complain of air pollution from automobiles, cars interfering with scenic views and traffic jams hampering the natural experience.
* The absence of predators to regulate populations and periodic fires to stimulate plant growth led to an overpopulation of grazing animals.
* In Yellowstone, elk have almost entirely driven out deer, bighorn and pronghorn sheep, and even beaver populations, or pushed them into poorer habitats, leaving them prey to disease and boom-and-bust population cycles.

In contrast, individuals and private organizations have a long history of protecting environmentally valuable lands. For instance:

* The Audubon Society maintains more than 100 sanctuaries and nature centers comprising more than 300,000 acres.
* The Nature Conservancy protects and maintains 15 million acres in the United States in nearly 1,400 private preserves ? an area greater than the states of Connecticut, Delaware, New Jersey and Rhode Island combined.

National Forests. Like national parks, national forests have also suffered from conflicting management goals and environmental degradation. Logging and the roads built to access timber have often been environmentally destructive. For instance:

* In the Northern Rockies, some trout and salmon streams have been severely damaged by several feet of silt or mud runoff from logging roads and clear cuts.
* Road construction created inroads for exotic, often harmful species of wildlife, plants and parasites.

The Forest Service has also tried the "let-nature-take-its-course" approach by designating roadless areas and limiting logging. But the forests' health has continued to decline because they are overcrowded with too many living, dying and dead trees:

* Historically, large ponderosa pines grew in stands of 20 to 55 trees per acre in the Western national forests; today they grow in densities of 300 to 900 trees per acre.
* National forests in California have an estimated 10 to 20 times more trees than is "natural."

When forests become too dense they are more susceptible to disease and infestations. Keeping the number of trees per acre at an optimal level helps regrowth and biodiversity by allowing sunlight to reach the forest floor. Overcrowding also increases the likelihood and severity of fires. According to Forest Service figures, 60 percent of national forest land is unhealthy and faces an abnormal fire hazard. And of the more than 90 million acres at high risk for catastrophic fires, 14 million acres are designated roadless areas, where access is limited.

Bureaucratic paralysis often infects federal forest management efforts. For example, after a forest fire in California burned both public and private land:

* The Forest Service removed dead trees and other fuels from only 1,206 acres and replanted 230 acres in the 27,000-acre Lassen National Forest.
* Only 181 acres of the more than 28,000 acres in the Plumas National Forest were reforested.

By contrast:

* Private foresters reduced the chance of a future catastrophic wildfire by removing 30,633 tons of dry material, enough to fuel 3,600 homes for a year.
* They harvested enough larger dead trees to build 4,300 homes.
* And they spent millions of dollars to reforest the burned land, planting nearly one million seedlings of seven different tree species.

Private organizations have also successfully managed forested land for multiple uses. For example, North Maine Woods, Inc., a land management trust, owns almost 3.5 million acres and allows both logging and recreation:

* The trust maintains 17 access checkpoints on roadways where visitors register, pay a small fee and obtain permits for campsites.
* The fees, comparable to those at local government parks, along with profits from logging operations, are used to maintain roadways, improve campsites and clean up litter.

Ocean Fisheries. There has been a rapid and unprecedented decline in American and world fisheries under government regulation. In the 1960s, the government began subsidizing fishing through grants, tax breaks and below-market loans that resulted in more fishers chasing fewer fish.

* In the past 50 years, populations of large fish species ? including tuna, swordfish, cod, halibut and flounder ? have decreased 90 percent worldwide.
* The National Marine Fisheries Service lists 98 species as overfished.
* Due to overfishing, half of all U.S. fisheries, and a quarter of the major fish stocks worldwide, are in jeopardy of an abrupt, severe, irreversible decline.

While government-operated fisheries are declining, privately owned fisheries have prospered. For example, of the 133 million tons harvested from inland and ocean fisheries in 2003, 40 million came from aquaculture, or private fish farms and hatcheries. The four U.S. ocean fisheries that have been privatized now have smaller fishing fleets, higher incomes for fishermen, and larger, healthier fish stocks.

Ownership in Action. The concept of ownership can be extended to public lands and ocean fisheries. For example, some federal lands could be sold or auctioned off to private parties (individuals, companies or nonprofit organizations). Or management could be transferred to congressionally-approved boards or to states or counties that have demonstrated superior economic and environmental performance.

As for fisheries, financial incentives to overharvest marine resources should be eliminated and replaced with property-based solutions that create incentives for conservation. A system of tradable rights, called individual transferable quotas (ITQs), could be implemented, entitling fishermen to a certain portion of the catch.

Where strict private property rights cannot be established, new markets can be created or economic incentives can be brought to bear on the management of the resources in question in order to improve the environment.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111442 - 08/25/07 01:12 PM

let me know when you finally get your head out of your ass HB

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111443 - 08/25/07 01:22 PM

Liberty , is it worth all that....

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111444 - 08/25/07 01:25 PM

Now HB, can you please inform everyone of the brilliance of your leave them alone plan? And while you are at it, what is wrong with selective thinning? Can you explain to everyone why it is so wrong to take out an overabundance of trees, because we all know you are older than dirt and must have lived in the time when the trees were 50 to 100 per acre rather than how they are now up to 3,000 trees?

Obviously you like our national forests that are so thick with tiny trees ready to explode when some pine needles catch fire below. Obviously you like to see miles on end of nothing but black spears of dead trees.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111445 - 08/25/07 01:27 PM

Bubba,

You don't live out here, you don't have to breathe the damn air, you don't have to go to your favorite fishing spot and have to wonder if the next wiff of wind is going to drop a dead stand on your head. You don't have to watch as the rivers fill up with ash and sediment that kill off all the damn salmon and steelhead, so yes it is worth all of that.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111447 - 08/25/07 01:32 PM

Well then , by all means.....

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Bubba]
      #111457 - 08/25/07 02:13 PM

Quote:

And this large swath of destruction was where? It wasn't Warm Springs again was it?




Well!!

A few points Lib, without plagiarizing some others work.
3000 trees per acre is not wildlife habitat, in fact some of the best habitat comes after a burn. The bottom line is that I seriously doubt that there is anyplace on the east side with trees that thick. I hunted all over the east side of Oregon and I never saw anything remotely resembling that. The fact is Ponderosa'a, because of there growth habits would literally prevent that.
I lived on the dry side of the Cascades for 13 of the last 20 you're so fond of mentioning, I also lived in the country out among 'em, not in some concrete jungle with a TV view of nature.
There are places on the west side that probably are that way, in fact before thinning most private tree farms are that way. Its part of the farming plan, something you probably don't have a clue about.

You sit in front of a PC hundreds of miles away from the real timber country and then say that I don't know what I'm talking about, but I've been all over that east side, smelled the smoke, (something you probably don't do, but it makes good print), seen the glow on the sky at night and the lines of firefighting equipment on the roads. When you go into the real woods however you don't see the hyped up damage that people like you invent, you see some burnt trees, but mostly you see lots of grass, and healthy trees with some blackened trunks up 4-5 feet.
You're a "Johnny come Lately" to the area and an instant authority on forest health, in your mind.

Again, where was that wide swath of destruction? Surely if it was that bad you wouldn't forget where it was.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111463 - 08/25/07 02:59 PM

let's see, how many places in that post are you wrong, all of them, I live in the wilderness, something you never did, you lived in a desert and now you live in a convalescence home in Missouri going in and out of consciousness, I flew into Idaho, they took me into the Boise and Payette forests, where more than 400,000 acres were presently burning, flew over the Middle Fork and South Fork of the Salmon River miles and miles of black poles and ashen ground.

Care to ask anymore jackass


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111465 - 08/25/07 03:04 PM

I'll tell you what, you share with us your bullchit plan and how it is better than a plan that thins out the excessive fuels in the forest and then I'll entertain any further bullchit dementia based thoughts you might want to share, k old man

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111466 - 08/25/07 03:07 PM

"you see some burnt trees, but mostly you see lots of grass, and healthy trees with some blackened trunks up 4-5 feet."--HB

this is where you are entirely wrong and you are not arguing with someone who doesn't know, you are arguing with someone who does know exactly how damn pathetically wrong you are.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111469 - 08/25/07 03:09 PM

but then again of the two of us I supply supporting materials and you keep talking out yer ass, like the liberal, tree hugging jackass you are

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111476 - 08/25/07 03:27 PM

just like a damn Democrat when asked to share his plan, he ain't got one all he can do is take pot shots at the plan presented to him by a conservative.

Damn liberal, course should have known he was a liberal with a name like Hellbender, some damn ugly ass worthless salamander that can't adapt that we are for some reason supposed to care about


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111488 - 08/25/07 05:25 PM

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you Lib, but I couldn't see the keyboard, I was laughing so hard.

I have to bring this one up, its a scream and I think everyone can see the bullchit in this statement.
Quote:

* In Yellowstone, elk have almost entirely driven out deer, bighorn and pronghorn sheep, and even beaver populations, or pushed them into poorer habitats, leaving them prey to disease and boom-and-bust population cycles.





The Elk are running off the Beavers, the Bighorn????

Of course we should go back and and knock down some fuel in areas, they do that now with controlled burns, something even you've probably heard of. But only a moron would suggest that we should cut it it all before it burns and then sell the land. If my kids want to hunt Elk like I did, I want them to have the opportunity without paying some someone a small fortune.
Its our land, they ain't making anymore, we need to keep it. Only a liberal like you would suggest selling it and giving the money to congress to blow.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111490 - 08/25/07 05:41 PM

if you wanted your kid to hunt elk like you did, then maybe you shouldn't have gone all beardedclam and moved east

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111491 - 08/25/07 05:42 PM

what was your plan again?

Oh yeah that's right you don't have one, what a fukking dumbass


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111492 - 08/25/07 05:46 PM

"I want them to have the opportunity without paying some someone a small fortune."--HB

In case you haven't noticed idiot, you are paying someone a small fortune every damn year for your so-called ownership of the land, and guess what jackass and another $25.7 billion to fight the fires each year, but lets keep pissing away taxes

damn what a fukking liberal


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111494 - 08/25/07 05:53 PM

"Sorry for the delay in getting back to you Lib, but I couldn't see the keyboard, I was laughing so hard.

I have to bring this one up, its a scream and I think everyone can see the bullchit in this statement.

Quote:
* In Yellowstone, elk have almost entirely driven out deer, bighorn and pronghorn sheep, and even beaver populations, or pushed them into poorer habitats, leaving them prey to disease and boom-and-bust population cycles.




The Elk are running off the Beavers, the Bighorn????

Of course we should go back and and knock down some fuel in areas, they do that now with controlled burns, something even you've probably heard of. But only a moron would suggest that we should cut it it all before it burns and then sell the land. If my kids want to hunt Elk like I did, I want them to have the opportunity without paying some someone a small fortune.
Its our land, they ain't making anymore, we need to keep it. Only a liberal like you would suggest selling it and giving the money to congress to blow. "---HB

I supply volumes and volumes of reasons and all he can argue with is some minor statement someone made about elk and now I'm a liberal because I want to sell federal land

whatever drugs they are pumping into you at the old farts home must be some good chit


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111495 - 08/25/07 05:54 PM

"Its our land, they ain't making anymore, we need to keep it."--HB



where are the buyers going to take the land HB


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111497 - 08/25/07 06:19 PM

"they do that now with controlled burns, something even you've probably heard of."--HB

wasn't it Clinton's Secretary of Interior, Babbit that championed these "controlled" burns?

funny thing is, when a chainsaw gets out of hand it's just one dude's problem, when a "controlled" burn gets out of hand, it becomes an entire forest's problem and they get out of control quite often, winds being the biotch that they are


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111503 - 08/25/07 07:42 PM

Quote:

Unfortunately, markets are weak or nonexistent for the small diameter trees removed under this scenario. They can't, for instance, be used for lumber. The new software package helps weigh the economics of thinning in such cases to develop the most cost-effective approaches.





This is bullchit,the mill in Prineville had a small log mill that could make lumber from trees as small as 8". The problem is how to get some trees out without the skidder tearing up the ground, what to do about roads, the slash, and the list never ends.
People that write or sit in an office somewhere running a computer model have all the answers though.
We can sell it, let them build houses all over it and then we won't have the responsibility of protecting the private property, we could also let people live below sea level where we wouldn't have any financially expensive obligation either.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111512 - 08/25/07 08:45 PM

are you a slow reader or what

you make two of the most minor points in the history of debate, did I give you too much to read?

"This is bullchit,the mill in Prineville had a small log mill that could make lumber from trees as small as 8". The problem is how to get some trees out without the skidder tearing up the ground, what to do about roads, the slash, and the list never ends."--HB

how long have you had this can't do attitude, why that's the government attitude, we are going to own it and we aren't going to do anything about it. The private market can fix anything, or at least that's what we conservatives think


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111513 - 08/25/07 08:50 PM

you formulated your plan there HB, how long do you need? a year, a decade, a century, an eon? What do you need to formulate your collective genius into something that actually would work?

I know you are slow reader, but come on you've had a couple of months now and all you can do is pick one or two very tiny points and call them bullchit all the while you champion government ownership and management and call me a liberal. In case you weren't aware, your argument to date has been total bullchit. But here I am awaiting your comeback, but alas it turns out you've been talking out yer ass the entire time, you probably need to change yer shorts


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111514 - 08/25/07 08:53 PM

this is going to be painstakingly slow though if you have to research every point I have posted before you can come back with those devestating comebacks you have to date

but I'll wait, it's fun watching somebody do nothing but try to argue falsehoods because they want there to be public ownership of lands. That's all you got, which makes you a liberal in case you hadn't connected the dots.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111517 - 08/25/07 09:43 PM

Holy crap, Liberty and HB - six pages of this now.

You guys need to change your user names to Lenny and Squiggy.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Ozark]
      #111542 - 08/26/07 03:23 AM

hey as long as the dumbass insists on being wrong, I'm going to argue

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111554 - 08/26/07 10:51 AM

I just want to know how the Elk ran the Beavers and Bighorns out of Yellowstone, but even though Liberty posted it, he won't enlighten us.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111573 - 08/26/07 12:54 PM

I just want to know what Hellbender's genius plan is, since he's too damn scared to post anything, just like a damn modern day Democrat, HB you need to quit dipping the Viagra stick in Pelosi

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111589 - 08/26/07 03:11 PM

From page one dumbass, PAGE ONE!!! You catch on as fast as all the other liberals. We've screwed with the national forests for decades, and where have we gotten????
Again from page ONE!

Quote:

WHAT!, why do we have to do anything, why can't we just leave them alone and let people enjoy them?




Now the fires are so hot they started fires in Greece!

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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.

Edited by Hellbender (08/26/07 03:13 PM)


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111592 - 08/26/07 03:15 PM

your simpleton argument doesn't take into account that we are doing something already, just poorly, care to revise your bullchit statement?

your way is not a solution, your way is just bullchit, stalling for time, ain't got no clue about any of this, you're just arguing to be arguing


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111594 - 08/26/07 03:52 PM

What about those poor Beavers?
I answered you question, its not my fault you can't understand what "leave them alone" means, liberals never do understand let nature do it, for free, thats why they need more taxes, more civil servants, more, more, more.
Now jump in that Honda and run down to Starbucks and get yourself a $6 coffee and think about it.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111598 - 08/26/07 04:37 PM

hey idiot leave it alone, that means no one goes in at all, so your boy don't get to hunt elk in your simpleton argument of leave it alone

why don't you ask the people who wrote the beaver thing, oh I know you're too stupid to figure that out for yourself.

Leave it alone is not an answer, formulate something with a little more brain power, because leave it alone ain't a solution, it ain't possible with your we've got to keep the forests away from the boogie man who might manage it better than the government, damn liberal

now run down to Walgreens before your scripts lapse


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111606 - 08/26/07 05:30 PM

Quote:

so your boy don't get to hunt elk in your simpleton argument of leave it alone



And why would that be?
You're stepping on your own toes Lib.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111608 - 08/26/07 05:42 PM

leave it alone, you figure it out, you obviously are one of the dumber people I've dealt with

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111609 - 08/26/07 05:43 PM

next thing you are going to triumph roadless areas and non-motorized uses, and you'll do it while munching on a damn granola bar, leave it alone, what a damn liberal

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111613 - 08/26/07 05:55 PM

go chain yerself to a tree, simpleton liberal

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111615 - 08/26/07 05:57 PM

damn hugger

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111616 - 08/26/07 05:58 PM

no don't cut some trees down that might open up a mill and create jobs and stop the forest fires from burning swaths of destruction larger than most northeastern states, Hellbender you are an idiot

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111619 - 08/26/07 06:21 PM

Greece burns real good - especially bacon Greece.

I used to like Beavers a lot.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Ozark]
      #111622 - 08/26/07 06:51 PM

well see if HB will lend you his Viagra scripp and you can get to likin' beavers again

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111626 - 08/26/07 07:44 PM

I get a kick out of those Viagra commercials: "If you have an erection lasting more than four hours, call your doctor".

Hell, if that happened, I'd call everyone I know!


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Ozark]
      #111756 - 08/27/07 12:00 PM

I wonder if Animal Planet got some pictures of the Beaver purge? I'll bet it was sight watching those Elk jumping from rock to rock chasing those Bighorns too.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111757 - 08/27/07 12:02 PM

I bet it will be great video here in about 10 years when the tallest tree in a national forest is about four and half feet tall, because idiots said do nothing about the build up of fuel, in essence let it burn, let it all burn, nothing like hikes through "forests" you can see over.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111763 - 08/27/07 12:14 PM

why yes, its up to us to control mother nature

duko


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: duko™]
      #111764 - 08/27/07 12:17 PM

and by all means, form a hikers union. You guys could strike and hold picket signs along the edges of overgrown forest, or something

duko


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: duko™]
      #111785 - 08/27/07 01:29 PM

well duko the reason we have overgrown forests in the first place as you so eloquently pointed out is because we suppressed fires too fast and did clear cutting that allowed in too much sunlight in through the canopy

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111786 - 08/27/07 01:43 PM

this whole notion of let nature take care of nature misses the mark and that's not Liberty saying it, that's most people involved in forests in the west saying it

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111963 - 08/27/07 11:40 PM

So if we took over forest management in the west in 1803, who did the French replace when they claimed it. Did the Shoshone's have a forest service? The Ute's, Apache's.
Tell us Lib, you surely have another article that will explain it all.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111971 - 08/28/07 12:46 AM

From the judge in " my cousin vinny " :

What's a yute?

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #111973 - 08/28/07 12:48 AM

well if you are so dumb as to think that Indians let the forests alone, which you probably are that dumb, then we don't need to continue this beligerant discussion where you only write something after you've taken 12 shots of tequilla and slapped your viagra stick

but anyone with half a brain knows the forest service began in 1905, the argument of should we intervene in putting out fires was won over by 1908 as large fires occurred in the northeast and raged on into Canada, then the big blowup of 1910 that killed some 80 plus fire fighters and burned up 3 million acres in Idaho and Montana sealed the deal, the forest service decided it was going to fight fires, suppress them as soon as they could.

later on they decided that suppressing the fires has allowed there to be a large build up of fuels, but letting fires thin the forests doesn't work in the situation we have today, because we have ladder fuels, we have large amounts of trees, between 500 and 3,000 trees per acre on land that once only had 50 to 100 trees per acre. What we have is a situation whereby the one and ten hour fuels of the forest floor are burning, but they are catching the smaller trees on fire, which in turn ignite the medium sized trees and then you get your crown fires that take out the larger trees as well.

Now anybody who ever paid attention in class knows that a ground fire doesn't kill a large tree, but when the ground fire makes its way up the forest ladder and becomes a crown fire, I don't care how big the Ponderosa Pine is, the damn thing is dead once the firestorm passes. If you weren't such a belligerent drunken demented old fart who bases all his decisions on chit he saw eight years ago, before the worst of this chit started happening, you might be worth wasting time explaining what the situation is, but since you are a jackass incapable of refuting anything salient in this debate, go fuk yerself jackass


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111974 - 08/28/07 12:51 AM

He said salient.

griffin

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111976 - 08/28/07 12:55 AM

"and by all means, form a hikers union. You guys could strike and hold picket signs along the edges of overgrown forest, or something"--duko

so fuko you got a problem with hikers, what exactly would that be. enlighten me as to how your stupid ass goes anywhere in the backcountry, and not in Missouri, real backcountry, you know somewhere where you aren't always a mile from the next McDonald's. Keep in mind that the do-nothing jackasses have closed off considerable areas of the backcountry to anything other than your damn feet. So please tell me what your fukking problem is with the activity of hiking other than your probably too damn lazy to get up and get the remote off yer damn TV stand.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111977 - 08/28/07 12:59 AM

"He said salient."--Griffin

damn Griffin, you're supposed to quit reading after the third word in the first paragraph.

I'm impressed, hell you might learn something


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: griffin]
      #111978 - 08/28/07 12:59 AM

I'm jealous. No one's ever called ME a "belligerent drunken demented old fart". Help me out, Liberty.

I swear, I've been kinda watching this thread for eight pages now - and I still don't know if Liberty's wanting to burn down the woods or not, or why.


"Salient", huh?


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Ozark]
      #111979 - 08/28/07 12:59 AM

you belligerant drunken demented old fart

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111980 - 08/28/07 01:01 AM

Hiking??? Can we kill something while we hike....or at least when we're done hiking??

Trust me when I say this.....if hiking is what it comes down to in order to enjoy a big ass piece of forest....I'll burn all the sonsofbitches down myself.

griffin

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: griffin]
      #111981 - 08/28/07 01:02 AM

how do you think hunters get into some of these sections of the forest, you know the ones that can't pay for an outfitter to fly them into some ranch and then from the ranch they either hike, or ride a horse

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111982 - 08/28/07 01:06 AM

If I can't get a 4-wheeler or horse in there then I don't need to be hunting there....and I damn sure ain't just going for a walk.....so yeah, burn them forkers to the ground....I don't give a rats ass.

Bunch of damn good for nothing salient high ground anyways .....piss on it, burn it down!!!

griffin

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111985 - 08/28/07 01:08 AM

"I swear, I've been kinda watching this thread for eight pages now - and I still don't know if Liberty's wanting to burn down the woods or not, or why."--Ozark

Hellbender is the one that likes to see them burn completely into nothing, I want to allow loggers in to thin these overcrowded forests, Hellbender wants the forests to remain overcrowded tinderboxes that burn away in firestorms.

Hellbender lived in a damn desert when he was out here and he has no damn clue what these fires are doing in the sub-alpine and alpine forests, it ain't sagebrush and juniper trees going up, it's ponderosas, lodgepoles, firs, and whatever else happens to be in the way. And if someone wants to thin out the forest, some liberal ecoterrorist files a damn lawsuit that stops any activity. Hell they even sue to stop people from going in and removing the burned dead trees.

It's an ecological disaster that no one cares about because it is mostly on federal land, which is typical when everybody owns something nobody will take responsibility for it.

I saw paths of destruction from the valley below, all the way up a mountain, then back down the other side, then through the valleys and canyons then up the next mountain, then down the other side 700 square miles of it and it was pretty much contiguous, but we should just let nature take its course, my ass.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111986 - 08/28/07 01:10 AM

"I don't give a rats ass."--Griffin

why would you, you live in Missouri


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111990 - 08/28/07 01:20 AM

That ain't it.....just like "Charlie don't surf".......GRIFFIN DON'T HIKE!!!!

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111991 - 08/28/07 01:20 AM

Quote:

Liberty said:
how do you think hunters get into some of these sections of the forest




They're pretty dumb hunters if they walk into a place that's not both near a road and uphill from it.

I've dragged enough deer through the woods to know better.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: griffin]
      #111992 - 08/28/07 01:21 AM

well it's burning the motorized areas too, not that you give a damn about anything

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111993 - 08/28/07 01:22 AM

"They're pretty dumb hunters if they walk into a place that's not both near a road and uphill from it.

I've dragged enough deer through the woods to know better."--Ozark

a lot of them don't take more than the antlers, a lot of them just go for the trophy


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #111996 - 08/28/07 01:26 AM

Quote:

Liberty said:
a lot of them don't take more than the antlers, a lot of them just go for the trophy




Well, there's some folks who need three hots and a cot at the Greybar Hotel.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Ozark]
      #111999 - 08/28/07 01:43 AM

I don't disagree, some use pack horses though and a lot of traveling hunters end up donating the meat to charity, they fly in, shoot something and decide they don't want to take home the meat

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112012 - 08/28/07 09:39 AM

I think the forests should be thinned out by logging and then whatever is left should be lit on fire then be put out by fire fighters.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: JJ McGuire]
      #112036 - 08/28/07 11:12 AM

If you read close you'll see that mountain man Lib FLEW over the forest. The east side of Oregon has more mountain areas than where he lives, he just hasn't flown over enough of it to see it. There are plenty of roads, access isn't all that hard except for a few wideness areas.
Libs been out there a couple of years and he now would have you believe he's been all over it.
Like most other things, he don't know chit about the timber industry in the Northwest.
He drives a Honda for chris sake!

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #112044 - 08/28/07 11:37 AM

HB you're nothing more than an idiot, who doesn't know jack chit about anything out here and you prove it everytime you post. You want everyone to focus on me, rather than what is being said because you ain't got an argument to post up, you are simply relying on everyone's dislike of me, which I have cultivated over the years on purpose.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112046 - 08/28/07 11:40 AM

"wideness areas"--HB

is that a forest for fat people HB?


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #112047 - 08/28/07 11:42 AM

"If you read close you'll see that mountain man Lib FLEW over the forest."--HB

and how do you cover more than a thousand miles in a day, wait you're not from the future or from space are you


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #112049 - 08/28/07 11:44 AM

"Libs been out there a couple of years and he now would have you believe he's been all over it."--HB

well more than you, and I'm not even using a transporter machine


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112120 - 08/28/07 03:25 PM

Quote:

I'm not even using a transporter machine




No, an airplane and a Honda to gain some experience to go along with your plagiarized article, written by someone who believes Elk are chasing beavers out of Yellowstone.
keep diggin" Lib, you ain't hit bottom yet.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #112128 - 08/28/07 03:38 PM

plagiarism is when you pass something off that is not yours as if it were yours, the articles were cited, dumbass, I posted an article that has some minor statement about beaver herding elk and you've yet to argue the main point of thinning the forests and why private ownership is better than public ownership.

why don't you keep digging, because maybe at some point you will start going up


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112131 - 08/28/07 03:40 PM

so far you've said I'm going to grow the government, though my argument is to get the government out of the way, sell off the land to private organizations and people or even the states. I want logging companies to thin the forests, somehow you believe that grows government.

I argue against the government mismanagement of its lands and you argue for the government to keep it.

At what point do you look in the mirror and realize Bill Clinton is staring back at you?


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112158 - 08/28/07 04:54 PM

Dove season starts Saturday.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: griffin]
      #112170 - 08/28/07 05:11 PM

And we'll be hiking... with guns.

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Burrhead]
      #112182 - 08/28/07 05:28 PM

Quote:

Burrhead said:
And we'll be hiking... with guns.




Only to the nearest powerlines

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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #112185 - 08/28/07 05:34 PM

Quote:

Hellbender said:
Quote:

I'm not even using a transporter machine




No, an airplane and a Honda to gain some experience to go along with your plagiarized article, written by someone who believes Elk are chasing beavers out of Yellowstone.
keep diggin" Lib, you ain't hit bottom yet.





...... &


duko


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duko™
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: JJ McGuire]
      #112187 - 08/28/07 05:36 PM

Quote:

JJ McGuire said:
Quote:

Burrhead said:
And we'll be hiking... with guns.




Only to the nearest powerlines




that is if the ground hogs don't heard us up and chase us out


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bob
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: duko™]
      #112670 - 08/30/07 03:11 PM

either the fires finally burned out or dude remembered where he left his meds.

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Liberty
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: bob]
      #112681 - 08/30/07 05:35 PM

what do you know of fires being from illinois newbie? Damn, you jackasses do nothing but elect jackasses.

by the way, HB, did you ever figure out how the elk ran off the beavers?

you may want to look into woody debris or the lack thereof due to the two largest herds of elk being on the north and south areas of Yellowstone and the many, many years that the herds have been fed by locals and they didn't experience natural death rates in winter, plus until the mid 90s they didn't have wolves eating them, thereby they changed the landscape, eating a lot of the food that would have otherwise been available for the deer. I didn't write the point, but apparently there's a lot of information out there about the subject that the elk herds did drive out a lot of other wildlife.

but I am not arguing this point with you, I find it to be off point. You only wish to redirect to this point because you know your defense of the status quo in forest management is a losing argument


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112683 - 08/30/07 05:42 PM

let me explain how out of whack the mismanagement of our forests are to the newbie jackass from illinois

when the firefighters come out here and cut down a line of trees as a fire break, they will inform their hq of the location of the wood, then a forester will come out and estimate the amount of board feet the wood constitutes, then right about the time they've got someone to come in and get the felled wood, the liberals out here sue them and keep the matter in court long enough for the wood to no longer have a marketable value. Now in many instances they are tipped off by someone in the Forest Service that something so horrible as the extraction of already felled wood is going to happen.

Then there's the large amount of forest killed by beetle infestation that you aren't allowed to clear out due to lawsuits.

but you idiots think that this is just fine. Since you are against thinning, I guess you lock arms with the super freak liberals on the fallen stuff too.

GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS

And by the way, no the fires haven't gone anywhere, cept a little further on all their fronts.


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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112686 - 08/30/07 05:55 PM

Quote:

by the way, HB, did you ever figure out how the elk ran off the beavers?




You posted it.

Oh and I know this was probably a simple mistake for an expert like yourself, but IF they cut wood worth salvaging, they don't send a Forester , I don't don't even know if that club still exist, but either a Cruiser or a Scaler.

--------------------
A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #112688 - 08/30/07 06:09 PM

no you happen to be wrong it is generally a forester with the state, it has nothing to do with any club, but I know you've got make sure you look like the expert so pick at the smallest thing, and always avoid the 800 pound gorilla staring at you.

what a jackass

rather than simply agree with the absolute wrong of environmentalist lawsuits against taking already felled wood, you make some jackass statement

what a fukking jackass you are


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112691 - 08/30/07 06:38 PM

prescribed fires would be a great way to thin out the forests and they are doing it in many places, the only problem with prescribed fires is that these forests are incredibly unhealthy, they're full of ladder fuels that can, under certain conditions, which seem to be conditions that arise most days out here, these prescribed burns will get up into the canopy, they will climb the ladder fuels and kill off the old growth trees, who's bark is immune to the short fires on the forest floor.

these ladder fuels are how we get to have too damn many trees per acre sucking up all the moisture in the ground, which makes all these trees highly combustible, even the big ones.

One neat thing, I noticed in a vast blackened area where the fire had gone through was that indeed that damn bark on some of them big ass Ponderosas worked like magic, except where the fire found a weakness in it and got inside the tree and burned all the wood up inside it, but the bark's still there, hollowed out for about 12 feet from the base when it fell over and still burning inside the tree trunk.

so if we could get some thinning by mechanical means then maybe we have the forest service come in and set their prescribed burns that remain on the forest floor, like the are supposed to.

this nature taking care of nature idea---it ain't going to happen, to argue it is to disregard human nature, it is to disregard the fact that fighting forest fires is a multi-billion industry.

but according to the latest jackass from illinois I need to find my meds, the day I take advice from someone in Illinois is the day I believe global warming is caused by SUVs


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112705 - 08/30/07 08:35 PM

Quote:

no you happen to be wrong it is generally a forester with the state,




On Forest Service land?

Prescribed burns where there's ladder fuels? I don't think so, after all you only need to know slightly more then you to avoid that.
A Ponderosa burned inside out? You probably don't know a Ponderosa from a Spruce. In fact I doubt you have walked in any woods, especially where there has been a burn. hell you probably don't even know where Kinzua is, unless you're an Elk hunter, which you probably ain't.

--------------------
A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #112709 - 08/30/07 08:53 PM

you're right HB I have no clue what I'm talking about at all, I only spend three to four days a week in these forests with all the fires

yes idiot a Ponderosa burned inside out, but if you knew anything about these forests as you claim, you'd know that this really wasn't much of a news item. It happens quite a lot BECAUSE THESE AIN'T YOUR RUN OF THE MILL SAGE BRUSH BURNING JACKASS, THESE ARE FRIGGIN' FIRESTORMS IN FRIGGIN' UNHEALTHY FORESTS, THE BIG TREES GO UP WITH ALL THE SMALL ONES NOTHING IS LEFT BEHIND BUT CHARCOAL AND ASH BUT THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THIS EXERCISE YOU DON'T FUKKING COMPREHEND A DAMN THING YOU READ



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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112710 - 08/30/07 08:55 PM

"Prescribed burns where there's ladder fuels? I don't think so, after all you only need to know slightly more then you to avoid that."--HB

apparently the concept of wind and burning embers wasn't taught in your pioneer one room school house


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112711 - 08/30/07 08:59 PM

Liberty, are you short, fat, and suffer from a serious receding hairline? I gotta know....Its all that lacks from the mental image I have of you pounding angrily on your keyboard with a chocolate yohoo and bag of cheesy puffs at your side

duko


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: duko™]
      #112721 - 08/30/07 10:26 PM

The roof.....the roof...the roof is on fire....we don't need no water let the motherforker burn.....burn motherforker.....BURN!!!!

griffin

--------------------
"The Irish are one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever." - Sigmund Freud


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: griffin]
      #112725 - 08/30/07 10:33 PM

I personally believe that people, such as U.S. Americans, don't undertstand the burns, such as in S. Africa, and the Iraq, such as, because most of the people in our nation don't have trees, and education, such as, Asia, and the Iraq, and can make the world better.

Thank you.

griffin

--------------------
"The Irish are one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever." - Sigmund Freud


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: griffin]
      #112742 - 08/30/07 11:09 PM

Looks good griffin, but you forgot to say Jackass like 10 times.....

duko


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: duko™]
      #112774 - 08/31/07 01:43 AM

full head of hair, tall, muscular never had a yoohoo and don't like cheesy puffs

Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, & Jackass &


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112775 - 08/31/07 01:49 AM

"The roof.....the roof...the roof is on fire....we don't need no water let the motherforker burn.....burn motherforker.....BURN!!!!"--Griffin

shouldn't you be strategizing on how to kill America's dumbest bird


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112778 - 08/31/07 01:59 AM

"Liberty, are you short, fat, and suffer from a serious receding hairline? I gotta know....Its all that lacks from the mental image I have of you pounding angrily on your keyboard with a chocolate yohoo and bag of cheesy puffs at your side"--duko

I have this mental image of you in an airport bathroom praying that Sen. Craig is in the stall next to you &


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Hellbender
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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112816 - 08/31/07 12:45 PM

Quote:

I only spend three to four days a week in these forests with all the fires





Which week, last week you were flying. So you're a Hot Shot now, or are you a jumper? dreamer? bullchitter?
Trees burning inside out, thats better than Elk chasing Beavers or fires burning hotter today. Keep 'em coming Lib, everybody can use a little laughter in their day.

--------------------
A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.

Edited by Hellbender (08/31/07 12:46 PM)


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #112817 - 08/31/07 12:49 PM

the truth can be funny, even to demented old farts

yes last week I did do some flying and we landed, most weeks I do some driving and some hiking, I know it is hard for an idiot laymen to understand, but we media folks cover some ground, a little more than you do so we can fill your little mush brains with information that you can drink your pabst blue ribbon to and then fire off some demented diatribe letter to the editor with all the misspellings that confirm your inbred jackassedness.



the funny thing about trees burning inside out, it's pretty damn common occurrence, so that just makes me wonder what it is you did all the time you were supposedly out here becoming the so-called expert on the west that you claim to be from your bed there in the invalid's home


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Hellbender]
      #112819 - 08/31/07 12:59 PM

HB,

how long are you going to be a coward on this and not argue the actual point? I mean it's one thing to make a joke every now and then, it's quite another thing to now try to make jokes about things that happen all the time.

So how long you gonna be a puss


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: Liberty]
      #112821 - 08/31/07 01:08 PM

Quote:

Liberty said:
full head of hair, tall, muscular never had a yoohoo and don't like cheesy puffs

Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, Jackass, & Jackass &





So you say.....


Come on dude...admit it!





duko


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Re: Forest Fires are for Suckers?like you! [Re: duko™]
      #112822 - 08/31/07 01:19 PM

nice self portrait there duko or did Sen. Craig take that for you?

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