Ozark
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Quote:
Liberty said:
all it has done is increase healthcare costs in this country by several thousand percent since its inception in the 60s.
Thank you LBJ
Exactly.
Like I said before, when I was a kid in the 1950's my Dad was a mail carrier. We lived on a cul-de-sac in a new "tract" home in CA. THREE medical doctors and their families lived on that block - and if they had more money than we did you couldn't tell it.
That's because a doctor visit cost about $5 and prescriptions cost about $3. Yes, wages were about a buck an hour at that time so those charges were substantial - five hours and three hours work. Still, medical charges have gone up far more than inflation.
The government getting into it has meant a massive transfer of tax money to private business - the medical industry.
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Let me shock the chit out of everybody, they should just extend Medicare to everyone, with some adjustments.
Some type of universal health care is coming, like it or not. Without whining, bitching and crying about how the financial side of Medicare performs, it will still be the cheapest and best performing overall, most likely. Its staged on what you have and can afford, and most notably only forces you to accept the basic, which doesn't have to be a freebie. 
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whatever happened to here's your bill, pay it
It never existed dumbass, even among the rich. 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"It never existed dumbass, even among the rich."--HB
spoken like the old liberal you are, it's existed for me at various times in my life, frankly during those periods I paid less for healthcare when it was straight out of my pocket.
never existed what a damn dumbass.
Oh and this it's going to happen anyway argument, what a damn liberal, what's next HB you gonna explain to me the evils of my SUV ownership and how I'm melting the ice caps
sad really, HB running around here acting like a liberal just so there will be someone to beat up on. Stop it HB 
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
it's existed for me at various times in my life,
There are probably few that haven't experienced that dumbass, but being financially forced has nothing to do with the subject.
I'm going to tell you something that may shock you, so sit down, never mind I'm sure thats what you do all day , But back to the news, there was vehicle insurance before it was legally required. People actually bought it because they thought it was in their best interest.
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what's next HB you gonna explain to me the evils of my SUV ownership
I thought you had a Honda?
Me liberal, no you're more liberal then me. I'm a conservative who knows that sometimes its better to try and slow the train down, rather than stand in front of it like a liberal would, and you suggest. In case you were looking the other way, the House passed another freebie insurance this week. 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Ozark
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Quote:
Hellbender said:
In case you were looking the other way, the House passed another freebie insurance this week.
I read something the other day, about how they catch wild pigs in the jungle areas of South America.
First, they spread corn in a clearing in the jungle, and the pigs get used to coming to that clearing to eat the corn.
Then a fence is built along one side of the clearing. That scares the pigs away, but within a few days they come back for the corn again. Then, the fence is extended to enclose two more sides of the clearing. Again, the pigs eventually get used to it and come back.
Finally, the fence is extended around the rest of the clearing, with a gate in it that's left open. After some time, the pigs will go through the gate to eat the corn. Then while they're in there - the gate is closed.
The pigs will run around for a while trying to get out, but they finally settle down and eat the free corn. They've paid a big price for that corn - THEY'VE LOST THEIR FREEDOM.
And that's exactly what's going on in this country, with government providing so much and taking care of us all. That "free" stuff doesn't come without a BIG cost.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"I'm a conservative who knows that sometimes its better to try and slow the train down"--Liberal Hellbender
when has that ever worked, damn weak spined call yourself a conservative while handing over every damn thing there is to the liberals, where's your fight old man
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Thats why they're still "natives", we would shoot them and eat pork with corn.
Was that your point? 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
when has that ever worked
Multiple times. The paper put out by the super libs from Berkley described your so called conservatism to a tee. Sit and hold your ground while the forest burns down around you, pun intended. Thats not what the Conservatives who have driven the Republican party since 1964 have done. The fact is they have tried to control the train, and make it run economicly for the long term, while idiots like you have stood in front of it like Wiley.
Chicken Little activists like you are no different then the Liberals. The forests that you run around claiming are burning down in hotter fires are a great example, the Libs want them put off limits to protect them from fire and you want to cut them down to protect them from fire.
I earned my conservative credentials, I voted for Goldwater, Reagan, etc. In the areas I grew up in conservatism has became stronger to the point of voting that way.
For you, I know you didn't vote for Barry, hell I don't know if you voted for Reagan, and as to growing up, how is Obama doing? How's that planet friendly SUK you drive doing.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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Goldwater was against Medicare 
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
Liberty said:
Goldwater was against Medicare
Is that all you got?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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that's all I needed to say to debunk your liberal bullchit
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
The government getting into it has meant a massive transfer of tax money to private business - the medical industry.
So you're saying the government is already in it? Can you give us the source of this belief that the government has caused health care cost to skyrocket? Do you believe that more options in meds and procedures has had no affect? How about liability, no affect?
Lib like all closet liberals you want free care.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Ozark
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Quote:
Hellbender said:
So you're saying the government is already in it? Can you give us the source of this belief that the government has caused health care cost to skyrocket?
Uh, yeah - I'd think that's obvious.
Before Medicare, doctor visits and care were priced according to what people could pay. I've heard my folks say that my birth, which was a difficult one and kept my mom in the hospital for over a week, cost $75. total.
I guess medical insurance was available back then, but it really wasn't needed because rates were limited by what people could pay. If doctors and hospitals had increased their charges to outrageous levels it wouldn't have done them any good. People would have either gone without care or the doctors would have had a bunch of uncollectable bills.
Then the government got into it with Medicare and medical charges went up - 'way up. That made health insurance necessary, and with access to the deep pockets of the government and insurance companies the medical industry has been increasing charges all out of proportion to inflation for over 40 years.
It's nature of capitalism that the price of goods and services will always be as much as the market will bear. That's a good thing and it's self-regulating - if a private business charges too much, someone else will always find a way to be more efficient and charge less for the same product.
Where that gets screwed up is when government comes in - by forcibly taking money away from taxpayers and giving it to a private industry. That's what Medicare is, and like everything government touches it has created inefficiency, overcharging, and abuse.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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Hellbender said "Lib like all closet liberals you want free care."
damn what level of dementia are you currently experiencing, you sit around and argue for a complete Medicare takeover, then try to argue that the rising cost of medical care in this country has nothing to do with Medicare and Medicaid, when you look at the graphs of the rising costs of health care in the country, why does the damn thing start its spike right after Medicare and Medicaid were created, did we all the sudden start coming up with new cures that required all the sudden expensive research, did we all the sudden decide malpractice suits were expensive?
Stop making a fool of yourself so that there will be an argument on here
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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There's one little problem with your theory Ozark, most doctors don't like Medicare because it pays LESS!
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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No Lib, you're just like the people in the ninth ward, no insurance just pay cash, just send you the bill, of course when you can't pay it you'll expect others to pay it.
Dats what yo pipple do.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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look I'm Hellbender, I'm going to say whatever comes to my mind first without the benefit of an inner monologue
hey world this Hellbender, I'm an idiot
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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hey world I'm the conservative Hellbender who believes Medicare is the best possible health insurance on the planet.
I love me some aspirin at $10 per tablet, don't worry Medicare will pay for it
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Ozark
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Quote:
Hellbender said:
There's one little problem with your theory Ozark, most doctors don't like Medicare because it pays LESS!
Sure, if Medicare pays 10 times what a "procedure" is worth and health insurance will pay 15 times what it's worth - then doctors prefer patients covered by insurance.
But how would they like patients with no Medicare or health insurance at all, who make an average income and have to pay their own bills? I bet doctors would prefer Medicare patients to having to try and collect $100-a-month payments from people for years and years.
That Stryker Corp. I own stock in - the news today is there was a big investigation of the kickbacks medical device manufacturers give orthopedic surgeons to use their products. The problem is that the cost of those products is hugely inflated to cover the kickbacks, and doctors are doing lots of procedures that patients don't need in order to sell the products.
Stryker "cooperated" with the Feds and ratted out the whole industry.
It seems it's common practice for orthopedic surgeons to get manufacturer kickbacks often exceeding $100,000 a year in the form of phony "consulting fees", free trips, new cars, etc. Stryker promised to quit doing that stuff and also ratted out its' competitors. Now the competitors have to pay $351 million in fines and Stryker doesn't have to pay anything.
You KNOW that won't stop the kickbacks - smart people and too much money are involved, they'll just find a way around it. The ironic thing is that the settlement didn't say anything about lowering the prices charged customers. So now it puts those companies in the unique position of being told by the Government they have to KEEP all the money they were giving doctors in kickbacks. No wonder they settled.
And you don't think there's tremendous abuse, fraud, and overcharging all through the medical business? Ha - there's probably kickbacks on everything from drugs to wheelchairs to BandAids to tongue depressors. This is big, BIG business with government and insurance paying the freight.
Darndest thing - my Stryker stock went up a bunch today.
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hillbilly
member
Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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The last few years it seems the feds have my number. I've been called in for jury duty service the last three out of four years. Anyway, the two most prevalent cases for federal jury duty have been either meth related or, you guessed it, medicare/medicade fraud!
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
The problem is that the cost of those products is hugely inflated to cover the kickbacks, and doctors are doing lots of procedures that patients don't need in order to sell the products.
Ozark you contradict your own argument. There's no doubt that pharmaceutical reps, kickbacks (which is common in business and not necessarily illegal), litigation, etc. are comman and cost money, but that does not equate to the government being the cause. The "cause" in private insurance is no universal insurance. Someone has to pay for those who don't pay. Someone has to pay for research, then someone has to pay for lawsuits and ridicules payouts.
Hillbilly hit on the biggest problem with Medicare, fraud. Medicare fraud in New York alone runs 3 billion annually.
We need a way to insure everyone, so that everyone pays a fair share. It has to keep up with a rapidly improving medical system. If the people made congress clean up Medicare, then it could fairly do it, with some obvious adjustments.
Why not let Medicare do it? Why install another agency to suck out more dollars? Medicare B isn't required if you have private insurance, it can be supplemented at a reasonable price to the point it rivals private.
Unfortunately private insurance hasn't taken the hint and made insurance available to more people, so now we're probably going to get something from the feds and its time to mitigate the damage, not stand and argue pure bullchit like Lib does.
We had better pray that the Republicans draft the legislation.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
Edited by Hellbender (09/28/07 11:51 AM)
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"We need a way to insure everyone, so that everyone pays a fair share."--Hellbender
spoken like a true liberal
why do we need a way to insure everyone? Why in a capitalistic society must everyone pay a fair share, rather than what share they want to pay?
you may be willing to take down your pants and allow the Dems to start screwing you because you think it's inevitable, but the rest of us haven't given up.
Damn Hellbender it is a load of horsechit you are selling, and to think that a Republican nationalized healthcare plan would be any better than a Democrat one.
the idea is to shrink government, not grow it, watered-down socialists are no better than double-strength socialists, the damn socialism lives, the only way it dies is if you do not allow it any space or any new life.
If you are not committed to the fact that it is the evil transition from capitalism to communism, then do me a favor, forget to vote the rest of your golden years.
I'm sick of paying for your generation's weak spine as it relates to standing up to socialism.
All you have done is hamstring future generations with chit that does not work and sucks us dry of our ability to make a decent living.
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Whackattack
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 2554
Loc: Farmington, Mo
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Here's a little reason why you might not want Medicare expanded to 300 million people.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/M...EMPLATE=DEFAULT
Once the government starts dictating how much a doctor can make, said position no longer becomes attractive. Shortage of doctors equals fewer providers plus more people seeking "free" care. Recipe for disaster if you ask me.
Edited by Whackattack (09/28/07 05:30 PM)
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Hop
Reged: 12/16/06
Posts: 1801
Loc: Now that's a 10-2 Code
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I can tell ya right now that alot of people think Healthcare workers cut a fat hawg when it comes to salaries. And I'm here to tell ya that just aint so... Swampy can tell ya that for the work we do we are very underpaid....And our employers tell it that it is because of re-embursements.....
I have a Buddy of mine that is an ER DOc that told me and showed me exactlly what ER Docs Make off of an ER Visit when it comes to medicad... It is $7.00 per patient.. And when you figure in a Billing service that gets 10 percent off of of the 7.00 for doing the paperwork.
And then there are insurance companies that dont pay like Coventry.. That is in the Millions just coventry alone.
And then you have the No-Payers who flood the Drs. Offices and ER's.
And just think each and every patient that walks through the doors has the legal right to sue you even if the claim has no merit... The insurance company that insures the Drs and Nurses and Hospitals still has to shell out bucks to defend you and then that gives the insurance companies ans excuse to sky rocket you premiums.
So if you ask me the very first place to look at is Tort Reform.. But that will never happen because Insurance Companies call the shots w ith the "Wheels in Government Office".
And if you add more of a burden to the system.. You think you see a shortage of Drs and Nurses Now and Long Waiting Lines in ERs and Drs. Offices You Aint Seen Nothing. Alot of Health Care Professionals due to Job Stress and Salarie are looking elsewhere when it comes to occupations..
It's sad that we have one of the Finest ER Physicians in Town that is going to work for a computer firm and not even giving patient care because of what is going on now.
Okay I'll Shut Up!
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Visit us at: http://flocked-N-Locked.com
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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ER docs don't make a lot compared to other doctors, basically the medical profession proves the old adage it is better to work for thyself than for someone else as ER docs are generally paid about the same as teachers, and less when you factor in the work they do.
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