Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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Tort reform is one way to address the problem, so is addressing the deep pockets attitude that exists in enough places in healthcare as to warrant investigations and prosecutions. Fraud is huge. But Medicare for all is not the answer, no one system is the answer. Next thing you know, Hellbender will be arguing that we need one bread producer, and one beef producer and one rice producer and we all should drive the same car.
I refuse to let my American rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness go quietly in the night and allow them to be swallowed whole by a government that proves over and over again it is where incompetency breeds complacency.
you want to be like the rest of the world, I don't. Being the best in the world is something we should continue and Medicare for all or universal healthcare for all only means everyone suffers greatly.
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Hop
Reged: 12/16/06
Posts: 1801
Loc: Now that's a 10-2 Code
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I can tell ya the Average Liabilty Insurance Yearly from an ER Doc is 60,000.00 a Year..Looks at what has to be seen before the Mal-Practice Insurance is paid for.
When it boils down to it Billary is just playing the same Game She did when Slick Willie Was in Office. Tugging at the hearts of the the public where they are softest.
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Visit us at: http://flocked-N-Locked.com
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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why do we need a way to insure everyone?
Duh, we pay for everybody now dumbass. My wife has probably been an RN as long as you've been picking you nose Lib, and done much of the ER. I won't give a figure because I don't know exactly what it is, but I wouldn't be surprised if half of the ER visitors aren't Medicaid or and no-pays. Who do you think is paying for them?
Once again Lib you stumble around showing your ignorance.
Very few doctors are in what most would call private practice, the bulk of them work for hospital organizations.
If some form of coverage similar to Medicare doesn't happen you'll see socialized medicine. The plan that Massachusetts has is similar to the way Medicare is laid out.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Ozark
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Quote:
Hop said:
I can tell ya right now that alot of people think Healthcare workers cut a fat hawg when it comes to salaries. And I'm here to tell ya that just aint so
I guess it depends on what kind of doctor you are.
My daughter and Dr. son-in-law built a $2 million dollar house last year. He bought her a new Cadillac convertible sports car for her last birthday (they call it her "Chevy"), and they just paid cash for a new Honda Accord for my 15 1/2 year old granddaughter.
A couple of weeks ago son-in-law came home from work and threw a $10,000 check in his wife's lap. He said, "Here - go shopping and have fun." He'd built up too much vacation time on the books, so his "group" bought 10 days back from him.
Hell, I wish I'd married the guy.
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Hop
Reged: 12/16/06
Posts: 1801
Loc: Now that's a 10-2 Code
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Like anything else looks good on paper!
Oh the ability groups have when ya have a group of docs that will barrow ton's of money on the group's credit!
Just like what one of the Cardiologist told me the other day... If we were all so well off with no debt we would all retire tomarrow!
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Visit us at: http://flocked-N-Locked.com
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"Duh, we pay for everybody now dumbass."--HB
yeah and our system now is preferable to any utopian society you think the government can create
Who told you the fairy tale about life being fair and why were you stupid enough to buy into the idea?
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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But Medicare for all is not the answer,
Which is what I said, if you digested what I said, it was that it could envelope those that have no insurance. Most of the uninsured are that way because they don't want to pay for it. Put them in Medicare A, and if they aren't on SS, make them pay for it. make them pay for their kids.
We do pay for everyone in the form of higher medical bills, we pay for them, the lawyers who search out people to allow them to sue, for the fraud that congress doesn't seem to have the time or the will to stop.
None of that will alter the fact that the media and the liberals are going to get congress to affect a plan to insure everyone. The question is how hard will it hit the average person. Will they end up with a socialized system, a system that only who they consider wealthy will pay for, what? You probably think it will blow over.
If Chavez's ideas hit here in the form of Hillary, the wealth of the upper class will become Hillary's carrot to lead the lower class. Then everyone will have the same piss poor health care.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Ozark
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Quote:
Hellbender said:
Most of the uninsured are that way because they don't want to pay for it. Put them in Medicare A, and if they aren't on SS, make them pay for it. make them pay for their kids.
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the wealth of the upper class will become Hillary's carrot to lead the lower class. Then everyone will have the same piss poor health care.
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Hellbender - several points:
(1) In the first place, I've already got piss-poor health care. My wife and I pay $7200 a year in premiums for medical disaster insurance - $5000 a year deductible on each of us. We've never had a claim on it, and I hope to God we never do.
That means, just like the uninsured, we pay all our own medical bills out of our pocket - PLUS $7200 a year for nothing.
(2) You're right - I DON'T want to pay for more insurance. I could pay double our present premium, about $14,000 a year, and then insurance would pay 80% of the bill every time we go to a doctor with the sniffles. But I think the price I'm already paying is outright robbery and it would be extremely stupid of me to choose to give them even more money.
(3) No conservative, as you claim to be, would write "make them pay for it, make them pay" when talking about expanding a government program. That's not conservatism, it's liberalism/socialism.
Government has just a few legitimate functions - the things that we can't do as individuals and have to band together to accomplish. Those include national defense, police protection, firefighting, building roads, and possibly (though I have grave reservations about this one) public education.
In my opinion, government was performing all of its legitimate, limited functions about 100 years ago in 1907. There wasn't even an income tax then - and that was the start of socialism in 1913 when the income tax began. That's when citizens instead of import tariffs started having to directly pay for government.
Socialism expanded greatly during the Roosevelt Administration with programs like Social Security and new taxes to pay for them. Even bigger moves toward socialism came during the Johnson Administration with Medicare and many other new programs and taxes.
Now, we're almost all the way there to European-style socialism - a system that has never worked at any time or place in the history of man. Every country that's tried it has found it causes runaway inflation, inefficiency, unemployment, and private enterprise having to go underground. It's estimated that 75% of Italy's economy is in the black market to avoid extortionate taxes. Britain has "tax refugees" living all over the world to avoid the British tax system.
Right now, the Euro is up and socialism is looking successful because goods are being manufactured in third-world countries for peon wages and sold for high prices in developed countries. That's a temporary, temporary situation - those third-world countries won't work cheap for long and within a decade or two the cost of all this is going to have to be paid for at home.
Letting government take over our health-care system will just about complete our turn to socialism - and I'm surprised you're for it.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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I'm not, he's a closet liberal 
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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As to 1, thats you, and I don't know what your situation is, but I guess its your choice.
As to 3, what do you mean no conservative would make them pay, who is going to pay? The only other option is for the taxpayer to pay it, I.E. welfare. I don't think thats a conservative viewpoint.
Flash, Santa Claus ain't going to solve the problem. You have to listen close and pay attention. You don't hear anyone saying that people don't get health care, most know better. They say they don't have Health Insurance, but many of those don't have it because they're free loaders. Hell yes I want them to pay for there coverage if they can, but I don't want them dragging everyones coverage down to meet the minimum.
Quote:
Letting government take over our health-care system will just about complete our turn to socialism - and I'm surprised you're for it.
I've repeatedly said that only those not covered, by circumstance or choice.
For all thats wrong with Medicare, it does act as a shock absorber and thats why supplements are so reasonable. People can't run to the ER for aspirin with it like they do with Medicaid.
Here's some points.
You aren't going to get cheap doctor services without socialized medicine, and in fact most of what you claim needs fixing could only be done by a socialized program.
How my thought that everyone who can pay should pay is Liberal escapes me.
I have yet to here what your ideas are, except to lower all the cost, but who do you think has the power to do that? My guess would be a government socialized program would be the only one, wouldn't you.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Lib you wouldn't know the difference between an Arkansas Toothpick and a Coon's dick. 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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you don't know the difference between a liberal and a conservative, obviously by your defense of Medicare and your defense of the Clinton Era Forest Management Policy.
Sadly, no one on here lives in the west to know just how damn liberal your thoughts are, but then again you spent a hell of a lot of time in Oregon didn't you? Figures, ain't a damn Republican out here I wouldn't biotch slap for their love of big government. 
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"You aren't going to get cheap doctor services without socialized medicine, and in fact most of what you claim needs fixing could only be done by a socialized program."--HB
Damn, son you are challenging Mondale and Dukakis for liberal supremacy with that line of horsechit.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"I have yet to here what your ideas are, except to lower all the cost, but who do you think has the power to do that? My guess would be a government socialized program would be the only one, wouldn't you."--LeftBender
there's this wonderful thing you lip service conservatives abandoned long ago, called a free market, that's how. Damn, you have fallen completely for the liberal two-step, first get them conservatives to realize just how evil they are so we can get a program in there that will be run poorly for 40 years to serve those who can't afford something, then rather than scrap the crap that don't work and go back to what we know does work (and if you were a conservative you would know the free market works when not saddled with government intervention) You, liberal Hellbender (kind of like Bizzarro Superman) want to reward the failed government program with more of our money so they can continue to screw up the market forces that still exist within an entire industry.
I guess you failed free market capitalism, but sailed through socialism. Anyone can sail through socialism, because it has no end game and isn't based on results, it's based on feelings and state power. Meanwhile, free market forces are in play and will do what they do, if they are skewed by do-good government (do-bad government) the outcome is a travesty and you want to continue to compound the problem.
Name anything the government can do better than the free market, anything.
You can't, government can't do anything better than the free market, hence why some smart individuals created a limited government and here you are handing over more of the damn keys.
Damn liberal, Tanvat may be more conservative than you
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
you don't know the difference between a liberal and a conservative, obviously by your defense of Medicare and your defense of the Clinton Era Forest Management Policy.
Liberty, like most journalist, you couldn't find your ass with both hands tied behind your back. I didn't defend Medicare, but unfortunately your lack of comprehension clouds your response.
I said that we have a federally mandated health insurance, and if we are going to make sure everyone has insurance, then lets use it instead of creating another inept agency. I also said those who come under it should be charged accordingly, something only the feds have enough information to do. If you have private insurance, you don't participate.
Clinton era forest management, you do live in ignorance of the very thing you profess to have expertise in. I suppose though that as a journalist your definition of expertise is more like Hollywood's than reality. 
The Yellowstone fire was the reason the present management plan for fire suppression was installed. Do I need to point out when Clinton was elected, or can you find that information on your own?
Clinton stopped the harvest of public trees, based on erroneous biological threats, push by the media, and to Weyhauser, who happened to be a big supporter from Arkansas.
You need to do a little with a search engine before you step in it again.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Ozark
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Are you guys back to forest fires again? I swear, you both need little toy fire trucks and dalmation puppies to play with.
I don't know what the difference between a conservative and a liberal is, but I know the difference between a war and a revolution.
A war is when the government tells us who the enemy is, a revolution is when we figure that out ourselves.
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
a revolution is when we figure that out ourselves.
Revolution, how about a revaluation that came on 9/11, that them thar Muslims are really getting close now, and they really do want to kill all of us. No more Camel killing missiles launched from water to a desert. It ain't just for Jews anymore. 
Give Liberty a break, he needs a simple argument to debate, like fire burns hotter so lets cut all the trees.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"Clinton stopped the harvest of public trees"--Hellbender
what do you think caused the overloaded fuel amounts and fires that burn hotter, thanks though for buttoning up my arguments for me, you blindly walked into that now didn't ya?
for a guy who thinks he is somehow smarter than me, you sure as hell can't connect dot A to dot B and thanks for making my Clinton era argument for me.
you are always my understudy HB, always have been, always will be
And as my understudy, my pupil, you need to accept much earlier in the argument that you are wrong that way learning is not painful for you. 
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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when you stop spouting what any Forest Service PMIO (Propaganda Misinformation Officer) spouts verbatim, then I might consider what you have to say as something of use, until then you are simply helping a failed bureaucracy continue to fail the people it is charged to serve, not dictate to.
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
what do you think caused the overloaded fuel amounts and fires that burn hotter, thanks though for buttoning up my arguments for me, you blindly walked into that now didn't ya?
It ain't the trees dumbass, its the brush and litter on the forest floor. They started addressing that after Yellowstone, which was slightly before Willie.
I hope you didn't spend too much time on the idea that if we cut the trees down they won't burn, thats not really Pulitzer material.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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if you thin out the ladder fuels then the trees won't burn, what are ladder fuels, HB, come on you've lived out here you know what they are
by the way, they don't have a let it burn policy, though it seems like they do, they still suppress whenever they can, they just can't now days due to limited resources, heavy fuel loads and dry conditions
so what does a regular person do when they own too much? They sell it off or expend more of their resources to take care of it. What does the government do when they own too much? They just continue to own it and tell you that it is great that the forest just burned down.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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you still are about a century behind on the ole learning curve
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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this is the part where HB then tries to tell me something about wildland fire use, and while those are in place HB over large swaths of forest, they aren't a let it burn policy, they will let it burn if a fire is in an area that threatens no one, but with the conditions in the west these past two years, there aren't many places where any fire doesn't have the potential to threaten people.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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oh and by the way, HB, you have obviously never witnessed the destruction in a forest fire, because if you had you cannot deny the destruction of the trees.
But then again you apparently are an idiot, speaking on something you think you remember.
Did you ever walk past the trailhead?
Guess what now days you don't have to to see the destruction, it's all over and miles and miles long, great scenic roads are now an avenue to view hell.
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hillbilly
member
Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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Your main misconception Liberty is the here and now attitude. You have to think in terms of hundreds of years when discussing forest policy and management. And I'm sorry, but the fire policies causing you so much heartburn now were started 75-80 years ago. "Only you can stop forest fires" Liberty.
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