hillbilly
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Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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Like I said Liberty, you can't see the forest for all the trees in the way. You haven't a clue about the natural world but will try to cram your beliefs down the throats of those that due. I'm not buying your bullshit and never will. That liberal ariticle happened to hit on the three main arguments going on with this thread, but you chose to single out one over the others. That, my friend, is stupidity. You know damn well and good there are far more causes to the western fires going on than your simpleton, niave argument and the damn logging industry ain't going to solve them. Get over it.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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well while you continue to hate your fellow man since he decided to live near the forest, you might as well expand your hate for your other fellow men who decide to live near the coast or near a river or in an earthquake zone or anywhere else on this earth.
you promote a stupid environmentalist argument, the only difference between you and the committed environmentalist, is you are too stupid to realize what the implications of your argument are. At least an environmentalist will come right out and say it, man is evil and shouldn't be on the planet. That's the logical conclusion of your argument.
and another thing, the forest service goes to point protection when they figure they can't stop a forest fire after about a day or two of initial attack. these articles you post give the impression that all us poor people who decided to live near the forest want them protecting us on our land, it is quite the contrary, we want them taking care of their own land.
you wouldn't know that however, obviously because you are too stupid to look into something for yourself and rely on only liberal media sources, and I've seen enough of your posts to know exactly where you get your information.
so why don't you man up and start telling Los Angeles, Seattle, Portland, Phoenix, Denver and all the other major cities in the west that they shouldn't live there.
And while you are at it, why don't you go to the forest service and tell them you are committed to having them eradicate the forests enough so that people will no longer live near them.
you are a child. you independent thinking never developed and now as an adult you make that point known with your every thought.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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by the way hillbilly is man a part of the natural world?
it's a simple question with a simple answer
but you are going to have the wrong answer or if you answer correctly it will be a hypocritical stance you have taken.
so which is it? is man a part of the natural world or not?
it's a simple question
but you think this is about the logging industry, how stupid are you?
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hillbilly
member
Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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I really can't believe it but I'm going to have to agree with HB! Alls you got is questions. It just happens my independent thinking can encompass more than one thing at a time, unlike yours. Buy the way, no need to ask questions you know the answer to just to avoid the embarrassment your argument is weak. 
Here's a simple question for you. Will a profit motivated company manage the forest in a natural state? It's a simple question. I have a feeling you won't answer it honostly due to you singlemindedness but who cares.
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
"Thinning out the national forests is an impossible idea. Thinning out some areas around towns, homes, not so impossible.
This is true, except in Liberty's world, because of economic reasons. To cut trees that the environmentalist lawsuits allow is impossible. In Liberty's world you pluck trees out of the forest. In the real world you build cut trees to build a road, then you haul skidders and the like in to the harvest area, then you have to cut trees that will fall to the ground. After they're on the ground they're limbed, which makes a big fuel pile that has to be dealt with at some expense. The logs are then skidded or cabled out to trucks that travel back down the road. What all this means is that harvesting trees is an expensive undertaking and the Forest Service doesn't harvest trees, they sell them standing. So if the FS wants an area thinned it has to include some timber worth some money.
The Democratic Congress prior to Clinton's gift to his backers, was greedy, as always, so timber harvest was done to feed congress, not to keep the forest healthy. The forest are now prime for a drought induced fire season.
If the forest are going to gain ground they need some thinning, but the timber would have to be a gift and that would raise more problems and corruption.
The best answer is to tell home owners they need to protect themselves, prescribed burnings, cutting dead stands, and allowing more roads, within reason.
Liberty's plan based on ignorance, because I guarantee he hasn't become an expert in a couple years sitting on his ass in front of a PC, but he thinks he has, at least enough to come up with a plan that would leave the forest to the rich. Selling them to Weyerhauser and investment groups wouldn't stop hunting, just for the average Joe that can't drop a few grand for an Elk hunt. Timber companies don't thin on virgin timber, they do on what they plant because its planted like cornfields, in rows. The trees grow thick, much thicker than in the natural forest and they are thinned as they grow. The nice spaced forest that Liberty sees on the West side of the Cascades started as a plot that an Elk couldn't live walk in, much less find anything to eat.
Once again Lib, I don't want the forest sold to Clinton's buddies, there will always be forest fires, but eventually, with good management they will overcome the damage done in the decades prior to 1988.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"After they're on the ground they're limbed, which makes a big fuel pile that has to be dealt with at some expense."--HB
and the fuel piles can be dealt with as there are markets for the slash as well, it's called wood chips which can be used for a number of things from ethanol to wood boilers to mulch, but then again I've witnessed this happening and you are operating on what you remember.
you've got Clinton on the brain
neither one of you would ever dare say anything against the current mismanagement of the forests by the present managers because you fear a boogey man, since you are both liberals
"If the forest are going to gain ground they need some thinning, but the timber would have to be a gift and that would raise more problems and corruption."--HB
more boogey men
"there will always be forest fires, but eventually, with good management they will overcome the damage done in the decades prior to 1988."--HB
and when does the good management start HB, cuz it ain't happening now, Clinton's cronies populate the federal bureaucracy already and I got news for you if you think they support elk hunting, you're an idiot.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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oh and another thing, the limited money the forest service devotes to thinning is generally spent paying people to thin out areas for them, because they are unwilling to open up large enough tracts to make it economically viable.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"Here's a simple question for you. Will a profit motivated company manage the forest in a natural state? It's a simple question. I have a feeling you won't answer it honostly due to you singlemindedness but who cares."--hillbilly
what is this natural state you speak of? Seriously, you want to take man out of the equation, man has always used the forest for his needs from food to shelter needs to fuel needs
there is no natural state when you remove man, the dominant species on the planet.
Now are you going to answer my question or are you going to sit there and grandstand?
Is man a part of the natural world or did we fly in here on space ships?
Frankly, selective logging has been going on since man found a forest. It is no different now.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"To cut trees that the environmentalist lawsuits allow is impossible."--HB
so rather than fight stupidity you choose to enjoin them in their idiotic campaign to remove man from the forest
why not join them on the Global Warming scam they have too, HB?
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"The best answer is to tell home owners they need to protect themselves, prescribed burnings, cutting dead stands, and allowing more roads, within reason."--HB
allowing more roads, well your precious forest service is moving to get rid of roads all over the place
the owners by in large do take actions to protect themselves
in Idaho this year you had fire jumps of several miles, that happens to be the truth. Embers flew not a mile or two but several miles and started new fires several miles away.
how is someone even with a large plot of say 640 acres, a square mile for those you who have no clue, going to defend against that? I went to some of those communities and they all pretty much had cleared around their homes, some of them didn't but for the most part they were ready, yet no matter of clearing will ever stop the toxic air quality they get to breathe in for six to eight weeks.
continue to promote a failed bureaucracy and continue to blame your fellow citizens for living in a place even you dream about.
I guess it comes down to envy, you hate us because we figured something out that you didn't and you want us out of here, because somehow we are the problem.
pathetic really, absolutely pathetic.
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
and the fuel piles can be dealt with as there are markets for the slash as well
Yes they burn them. Wood chips, they make them out of small trees dumbass. Do you really think its worth the effort to remove the needles and cones, chop up small limbs and haul them out of the forest? Did you ever see a chip truck coming out of the mountains, I know you haven't so don't make yourself look any dumber.
You should find another subject, you're just digging yourself in deeper exposing your ignorance. 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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hillbilly
member
Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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Quote:
Hellbender said:
You should find another subject, you're just digging yourself in deeper exposing your ignorance.
Damnit  I'm agreeing with you again!
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tanvat
member
Reged: 12/28/05
Posts: 251
Loc: St. Louis
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From HillaryCare to Liberty's nonsensical rants about forest fires . . . wow . . . that's a stretch!
Anyway, Lib you said something interesting:
"Name anything the government can do better than the free market, anything."
I'll take a stab: police and fire protection, national security - Marines, Army, CIA, etc; criminal and civil justice, to name but a few basics. Your penchant for extreme statements emits some heat, but no light.
"You can't, government can't do anything better than the free market, hence why some smart individuals created a limited government and here you are handing over more of the damn keys."
I just did. If you believe otherwise; i.e., if you really believe government can't do anything better than the free market, then there is no need for government. I had no idea you were such an anarchist - but, I guess there are plenty of young hippie hotties at those WTO protests, so I guess I can see where you are comin' from.
So, listen up Liberty, and take this lesson. The capitalist market system is an indispensible mechanism for our way of life and has created a standard of living unrivaled in world history. It is an enabler of and outlet for human freedom. But a world ran by a completely unfettered, "free" market is not a world we live in or have ever lived in. Like nearly everything in this world, when taken to an extreme, an implosion soon follows. This is very simply because our market system depends upon the provision of certain public goods that can only be effetively and efficiently provided by government; eg., interstate and international infrastructure, a sound currency, national defense, property rights, rule of law, etc., etc. ) The public goods that governmet should (must?) provide are things that can be provided just as cheaply/efficiently for many people as they can for a single individual. When you have such a situation, it is also basically impossible to stop people who haven't paid for such goods from freeloading off the benefits - so when those two conditions are satisfied, government should be involved. Do you really want the "free market" to come up with ways of regulating and enforcing property disputes? That would amount to nothing but a "he who has the gold rules" system.
An example of your no-holds barred the government can't do anything better free marketeering would be slavery, child labor in the 1800's, etc. And if you really believe in a completely free market, then you'll have to admit that prostitution and drugs should be legalized . . . which actually isn't a half bad idea... And you'll have to quit whining about the gubiment's lack of action on National Forests - if it's a problem, then the free market should yield a cost/benefit incentive that encourages people to move out of harm's way. Of course, you'll object that the very existence of the National Forests is not a free market situation and is therefore bad . . . the obvious reply to which is that the folks who live in or around our National Forests enjoy the benefit of that environment presicesly because the surrounding area is relatively pristine and desirable because it is a National Forest and would whine like babies if a factory or suburbia sprung up next door.
FWIW, I used to live in Wyoming - brother still does - what makes that state great is its unparralled opportunities for hunting, fishing, backpacking, etc. in some huge tracts of farily pristine lands (if you can get away from the ATV's and don't happen upon the camp some of the slob outfitters that cart in their fat and lazy clients and leave trash all over the place) - wouldn't be that way if an unfettered free market had its way.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"Did you ever see a chip truck coming out of the mountains, I know you haven't so don't make yourself look any dumber."--HB
here's another point where you are totally in the dark, in fact I have, just three weeks ago
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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prostitution and drugs should be legalized Tanvat
as to your other points, wow Tanvat are you arguing that government should only do what the Constitution says it should do rather than all the other crap it tries to do beyond police, military, firefighting, roads and a postal service (which by the way the free market does that better with the internet and Fedex and UPS and that other company)
what is pristine lands Tanvat, would those be the lands untrammeled by that evil man species?
the fact of the matter is you are all out to lunch defending a failed system, that if it were open to suggestion wouldn't require a call to have it sell off a great deal of its holdings.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"Yes they burn them. Wood chips, they make them out of small trees dumbass."--HB
what do you think thinning requires HB?
you continue to operate under some dumbass, I hate industry mentality you have on loan from the nearest environmentalist, that a thinning operation would come in and remove all the old growth trees and leave the chit behind
Why does selective logging work in Missouri? And somehow it doesn't work out here?
You're fukking stupid
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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I've never seen a wood chipper coming out of the mountains
don't even say you have because I know you haven't or something to that effect from the old idiot HB
http://66.60.184.155/incident/pictures/large/801/12/
I forget how many truckloads of the stuff they were doing at this other site I went to, but I think it was something like 20 trucks for some fairly small operation.
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tanvat
member
Reged: 12/28/05
Posts: 251
Loc: St. Louis
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Lib, just responding to your argument that the government should not do what the Constitution says it should; i.e., your statement that there is nothing that government does that the free market cannot do better.
The "fairly pristine" lands to which I refer are those that are still fairly intact, pretty much like they were 10 years ago, 50 years ago, 200 years ago - take a week or so and walk up to lakes along the Continental Divide in the Wind River Range and catch a cutthroat or up deep into the Absaroaka east of Yellowstone and watch bull elk graze at treeline - those are the lands I'm referring to. These places aren't "untrammeled by that evil man species" as you say - people like myself and many others - more every year -go there, and we spend good money to do it. But the land functions much like it always has and is, therefore, "fairly pristine." Of course, its a good thing for us that most of the Lower 48 is not pristine, as we need places to live and we need to access and utilize natural resources to sustain ourselves. But, unless you think that there is absolutely no value at all to a few remnant wild places, then it seems a reasonable compromise to leave well enough alone and to preserve intact the few remaining relicts of our natural heritage. Less than 5% of the Lower 48 is protected in national parks and National Forest Wilderness areas - its not unreasonable to let that be. And its not unreasonable to hold our National Forests in trust for ourselves and future generations - if you believe otherwise, witness the devastation visited on the Ozarks in the late 1800's and early 1900's by a "free market" logging spree. If you want our entire country divyed upon into 10 acre ranchettes, then I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Seems your position may be as unreasonable, uninformed, and as poorly thought out as the most misanthropic extreme tree-hugger - just on the other side of the spectrum.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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hey tanvat take away the government laws that restrict a private company from owning military weaponry and guess what, the profit-driven company will do it better than the wasteful spending Pentagon.
Private roads are also another case where they work in many cases better than the government alternative, which could be anything from no road being built to some road that doesn't meet the needs of its users. But then again, the government builds all those roads in those subdivisions now doesn't it? And those annoying private toll roads that are always in better shape than the government roads, those are terrible
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"still fairly intact"--Tanvat
intact what happened to the other land, oh yeah those evil people decided to live on it and that just bothers the hell out of you, are you a homeless person? Just asking.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"But, unless you think that there is absolutely no value at all to a few remnant wild places, then it seems a reasonable compromise to leave well enough alone and to preserve intact the few remaining relicts of our natural heritage."--Tanvat
there you go making up assumptions that are untrue, of course there is value to wild places, but the value is in man's ability to use those places, when they burn up that value plummets for generations and they are totally burning up, not nice little ground fires, crown fires, firestorms wasted landscapes for miles and miles and miles and you guys think that it is great.
It's not great, it places people in danger and ruins entire economies in various regions, those evil outfitters you speak of go out of business pretty quick when their area of the forest that they have a permit to operate in goes up in flames.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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What you boys fear, a raping of the forest, is already occuring through the mismanagement of the forests by the federal government.
When 800,000 acres is destroyed in a basically continuous path in Idaho, you wouldn't stand for it if it was loggers, but you applaud it as great when it is done by fire.
I take it you could care less if it was human originated or lightning originated, I mean the same end result occurs, the forest is gone so you get to have a rejuvenation, right?
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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You just can't help yourself can you Lib?
We have a portable chipper, setting on a hard surface road, being fed logs from a burn into it by FS personnel, it appears 4, need a big crew, and the chipper is feeding a dump truck.
Yeah you got me LIB, that sure looks like a logging outfit chipping slash at a harvest site.
You really just can't help yourself can you?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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well let's see, it was in an actively burning area, so they all had to be wearing Nomex outfits so it's kind of hard to tell who is FS and who is a private contractor, let me give you a clue, the private contractors were likely the ones operating the machinery and the FS seasonal employees were the ones handing over the slash.
Boy for someone who thinks he's an expert on all things west, you sure have a lot of holes in your arguments.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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and you said I have never seen a chipper truck coming out of the mountains, admit it dumbass you were wrong.
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