Ozark
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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I've decided that producing ethanol to replace gasoline as motor fuel in the U.S. is a scam. Some fat cats are making money off it, and promoting ethanol makes politicians look good - but it can't be a viable solution. Here's why:
(1) The energy gain with ethanol is very small. It produces about 1.1 units of energy when it burns for every 1 unit of energy it takes to make the stuff. That's too small a ratio, and making ethanol probably causes a net energy loss when you figure in some inefficiencies in production.
(2) Like I've said before, fermentation produces a HELLUVA bunch of CO2 gas as a by-product. I know from experience that just 5 gallons of fermenting beer will produce enough CO2 to drive the air out of a good-size room. If environmentalists are worried about "greenhouse gases", ethanol production will give 'em plenty to worry about.
(3) The clincher. We can't grow near enough corn or other food crops to make enough ethanol to make a difference. The proposed solution there is to break down cellulose into fermentables. That way, sawgrass, leaves, wood chips, and most any other plants could be turned into alcohol.
That's where the b.s. really shows in the ethanol argument. Those "fermentables" yeast eats are the same things we eat - starch and sugar, a.k.a. carbohydrates.
If cellulose could be efficiently broken down into fermentables, that would create an almost-infinite food supply - not for yeast, but for people. Everything from grass to logs could be used to make a nutritious tofu-like "stuff" that could be flavored up any way you want it. Nobody, worldwide, would ever go hungry again.
With all that in mind, it's pretty obvious to me that the idea of ethanol replacing a meaningful amount of gasoline fuel in the U.S. is just a politically-expedient scam.
Comments?
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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burn gasoline, it's cheaper
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foots
the exterminator
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5241
Loc: by my spiritual advisor, Wu
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Quote:
Ozark said:
(3) The clincher. We can't grow near enough corn or other food crops to make enough ethanol to make a difference. The proposed solution there is to break down cellulose into fermentables. That way, sawgrass, leaves, wood chips, and most any other plants could be turned into alcohol.
That's where the b.s. really shows in the ethanol argument. Those "fermentables" yeast eats are the same things we eat - starch and sugar, a.k.a. carbohydrates.
If cellulose could be efficiently broken down into fermentables, that would create an almost-infinite food supply - not for yeast, but for people. Everything from grass to logs could be used to make a nutritious tofu-like "stuff" that could be flavored up any way you want it. Nobody, worldwide, would ever go hungry again.
Soylent Green...........it's not food, IT'S PEOPLE......IT'S PEOPLE. 
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I was born kicking, screaming, and covered in someone elses blood. I have no problem goin out the same way.
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Paul San Antonio
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Reged: 12/16/05
Posts: 190
Loc: Ladue, Mo.
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I think Brazil uses nothing but Ethanol, they are completely independent of rag-head oil.
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old lodge skins
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 381
Loc: Porche's Prairie, MO
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The whole ethanol thing is just political BS.
Jack-asses can say, look we are helping the environment, the economy and the farmers, when in reality they are damaging all of them.
One thing that bothers me, in addition to what you have already stated is all of the ag folks who will soon lose their investments when people figure this out.
They are already seeing the price of the C2H5OH dropping while the cost of corn is up.
A few days ago I googled info on this subject and the energy ratio info (lies), that came from the industry folks themselves, were still pretty thin.
The worst case, like you have said, is a negative.
Some folks still seem to think that the bio-diesel idea might be economically viable.
I don't have a personal opinion on that one yet.
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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This is going to be debated heavily into the future.
The real problem with the "It produces about 1.1 units of energy when it burns for every 1 unit of energy it takes to make the stuff.", is where do you start and end the accounting? Do you include the portion of the defense budget dedicated to maintaining a supply? Do you include the subsidies? They count the fuel used to raise the crops as part of the formula, but if they use Bio diesel or Ethanol to produce it, where do you draw that line.
What about the security provided by a home grown energy supply?
If we had a secure domestic energy supply, and the most efficient military capable of shutting off oil distribution anywhere, who would be their Daddy then?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Ozark
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Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Quote:
maw said:
I think Brazil uses nothing but Ethanol, they are completely independent of rag-head oil.
Brazil is running a lot fewer cars than we are - and Brazil has Sugar Cane. That's a huge advantage for making ethanol.
Corn or any grain has to be "malted" and "mashed" first. The grain has to be sprouted to form starch, then the starch has to be treated to make sugar. Then - yeast ferments sugar into alcohol. If you can start out with sugar, like Brazil can, it saves many production steps.
So far as energy efficiency with corn ethanol - they're trying to build an ethanol plant here by Springfield. There's hardly any corn grown in this whole corner of the state, and the ground here is so poor it's not suitable for corn farming.
That means corn would have to be trucked to the plant from hundreds of miles away - and that would mean a net energy loss with any ethanol made there. That's doesn't solve any energy problems, it's just wasteful.
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
That means corn would have to be trucked to the plant from hundreds of miles away - and that would mean a net energy loss with any ethanol made there. That's doesn't solve any energy problems, it's just wasteful.
You're making an assumption that there isn't enough corn locally, but neither you nor I know the exact amount grown in the area. One would think that they wouldn't build a plant where the raw materials were to expensive to obtain. There's also the issue of by products, animal feed, and there is an abundance of users in this area for that.
This might be pertinent.
http://www.westonaprice.org/motherlinda/cornsyrup.html
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
Edited by Hellbender (10/09/07 02:21 PM)
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Here's an interesting accusation.
http://www.ethanol.org/news/index.php?newsid=23
I wonder how many Exxon stock holders might argue against Ethanol?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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"One would think that they wouldn't build a plant where the raw materials were to expensive to obtain."--Hellbender
not when they are subsidized, they'll build wherever and whenever they can get their hands on the gubbamint dole
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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"I wonder how many Exxon stock holders might argue against Ethanol?"--Hellbender
I wonder why an American Coalition for Ethanol would expect someone to believe their B.S. anymore than the oil industry's B.S. seriously, how much is the PR campaigns factored into the price along with the subsidies?
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
they'll build wherever and whenever they can get their hands on the gubbamint dole
So you think that in order to get subsidized, they had to build in Webster county? I doubt that.
Its probably that distribution access outweighed raw material transport.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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yeah, you're probably right because operations that take government subsidy always operate under sound business practices
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Ozark
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Quote:
Hellbender said:
I wonder how many Exxon stock holders might argue against Ethanol?
I'm not in love with Exxon, I'm just in love with what the stock has done for my retirement fund. I'm only going to hold the stock for another three years or so anyway, and I'm sure not worried about alternative fuels cutting into Exxon's profits during that time. It ain't gonna happen.
As much as anybody, I'd like to see the U.S. not have to depend on foreign countries for energy.
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JJ McGuire
Reged: 06/01/06
Posts: 357
Loc: Chester Springs, PA
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I'd rather buy sugar cane ethanol from Brazil than oil from OPEC.
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keeping it rural
Edited by JJ McGuire (10/10/07 09:54 AM)
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hillbilly
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Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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Here's an interesting story about real world economy from the use of ethanol. Close to home too.
http://www.ky3.com/news/local/10345407.html
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griffin
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Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 9625
Loc: the most dangerous city in Ame...
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There was a brand new ethanol plant in Ord, Nebraska when we went to the popcorn festival this year. All of the stories in the papers up there revolved around the 40+ high paying jobs that the plant brought to the area.
There was not a single story regarding the economics/ecology of ethanol. In an area where new jobs are non-existent, the only economy they care about is the one that puts food on the table.
griffin
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"The Irish are one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever." - Sigmund Freud
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
the energy ratio info (lies), that came from the industry folks themselves, were still pretty thin.
Old Lodge, apparently your doctorate degree comes from the same place that most of us get ours, a search engine, so how is it you know these are lies?
Of course the petroleum industry, just because they have an enormous capital investment in gasoline refineries and in the raghead economies, would never be suspected of bending the truth through third parties. 
Me too JJ.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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"Of course the petroleum industry, just because they have an enormous capital investment in gasoline refineries and in the raghead economies, would never be suspected of bending the truth through third parties."--Helliberal
there you go again, sounding like a Democrat, attacking the petroleum industry that has provided you energy for your entire life at a low cost. When do you start calling it big oil? 
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
When do you start calling it big oil?
When do you realize I'm still kicking your ass sonny?
I don't know why I bother to explain everything to you, but I suppose someone has to keep you up to speed.
My first post was " This is going to be debated heavily into the future." and thats the truth. If you own stock in Exxon, like Ozark, you'll be apt to accept information that favors American refineries. If economy is your biggest concern, then again gasoline will probably prevail. If you really worry about our defense, and the big boost energy independence brings, you might opt for Ethanol. If you want a large part of the huge sums of money spent on vehicle fuel here everyday, to stay here, you might favor Ethanol. If you're stupid and lack any meaningful input, you'll probably fall back on Its a liberal conservative issue,but fortunately, except for a tiny number, most have more foresight.
If you were paying attention in the past, you would know that, ONE, I've said that American oil has the capital investment to make Ethanol available and they will be heavily involved in Ethanol, if and when it becomes more universally accepted..
Two, I favor Bio-diesel, even if Jap vehicles aren't prepared for it. Thats your loss and no skin off the asses of most on here.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
Edited by Hellbender (10/10/07 12:52 PM)
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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ethanol is nothing more than a gubbamint boondoggle, plain and simple it is the very definition of a boondoggle, in addition, it is simply a wedge issue used to pick people off, and you have fallen for it hook, line and sinker.
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Liberty
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it uses government subsidy and political support so that it can even be close to viable, which it is not.
I'm sorry, but government subsidy whether it be for a crack whore or a farmer is very much a liberal/conservative issue. A liberal will support government subsidy, a conservative won't. I don't support the government propping up failed ideas and telling everybody everything is roses, apparently you do.
Determining the value of the subsidy does not rest on the character of the person receiving it, HB, the value of a subsidy is always wrong based on the fact it is nothing more than a redistribution of wealth. That's called robbery in the real world. We're doing nothing but robbing a whole bunch of Peters to pay Paul because he happens to grow corn and can't make it since the grand pappys of his ilk long ago accepted the government dole instead of the free market.
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Liberty
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kicking my ass...liberal please
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old lodge skins
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 381
Loc: Porche's Prairie, MO
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Hellbender, You're right, I am no scientist just a skeptical Missourian. I spent my life working in power plants, refineries, chemical plants, and auto plants etc. as a construction hand, foreman,for 25 years, and finally Supt. for the last 8 years. I got a pretty good idea of how things work.
I retired in the sticks and I have been watching this idea from several angles. There are a lot of folks in the area who thought that Ethanol was gonna be this big boost in Ag, and the other issues that have already been mentioned.
There were a few that were trying to tell the "truth" when the businessman/criminals were collecting the investment monies from the farmers around here.
When the anti-corn-ethanol folks say that energy to produce is below energy available from ethanol as a fuel, and the best that the pro-corn-ethanol folks can come up with is using one unit of energy to produce 1.34 energy unit worth of fuel, it doesn't take a forkin' doctorate to deduce that the truth is somewhere in between. Whaddaya think?
Also the best they have comeup with so far is still pretty poor 1 to 1.34. CTFO!
That is like the Arkies who were buying watermelons at home for a dollar, trucking them to K.C. and selling them for a dollar. They realized they weren't making any profit so they decided to buy a bigger truck. All they really needed was USDA to give them some money
In fairness ethanol might be a little more viable if there is a profitable use for the DDG. Tell us about that part, Ozark, I bet you know a lot more about that than I do.
Guess what, I don't believe that the climate change has much to do with human industry and I still feel like the steel shot deal was a scam too! (Just to give you an idea of the kind of person you are dealing with here}
Edited by old lodge skins (10/10/07 02:02 PM)
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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if the climate is changing, i.e. actually a trend that will last it has absolutely nothing to do with human industry at all.
I also have never, nor will ever buy into the idea that we are going to run out of fossil fuels. Our only energy problems are self-imposed by a failed political ideology that is attempting to take control and take away our freedoms. That's the rub. We are involved in oil extraction in the Middle East simply because we figure the islamofascist's oil is easier to get at than fighting environmental lawyers here at home, and we are probably right about that. And in case you think I believe we are in Iraq for oil, don't be a jackass with no reading comprehension.
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Ozark
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Quote:
old lodge skins said:
In fairness ethanol might be a little more viable if there is a profitable use for the DDG. Tell us about that part, Ozark, I bet you know a lot more about that than I do.
Apparently not. What's DDG?
And believe me, I think ethanol fuel is a wonderful idea if it's economically viable. Trouble is, the more I read about it the more it sounds like smoke and mirrors - a scam.
That's a great analogy about the Arkies buying for $1 and selling for $1, then deciding they need gov't help to get a bigger truck. It's like the guy just losing 50 cents on every item he sold - but he figured he'd make up for it on volume.
Lemme know about DDG.
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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More than 7 million tons of distillers dry grains are created in domestic dry grind ethanol production. For every bushel of corn made into ethanol, 18 pounds of DDGS are created and must maintain value to contribute to plant profitability.
The corn kernel is mostly starch at 61% of the wet weight, with protein, fiber, corn oil and water making up the remaining 39%. The dry grind ethanol process uses most of the starch present in the corn kernel during ethanol fermentation, leaving protein, fat, minerals and vitamins behind in a concentrated form. The forms of this ethanol co-product are Corn Distillers Dried Grains (DDG), Corn Condensed Distillers Solubles (CDS), Corn Distillers Dried Grains/ Solubles (DDGS), and Wet Distillers Grains with solubles (WDGS).
Dry grind ethanol production begins by grinding corn into a coarse flour and combining with water and enzymes. The enzymes begin the conversion process of starch to sugar creating a mash that is then cooked and sterilized. After cooling, yeast is mixed with the mash to ferment the sugars into ethanol, carbon dioxide and other metabolites. The fermented mash is then sent to distillation to extract the ethanol. The mash is now considered spent mash which then goes onto either a screen press or centrifuge, where as much liquid as possible is separated.
The liquid that is separated either goes back into the cooking system and is sold as livestock feed, or is partially dehydrated into syrup called condensed distillers solubles (CDS). The spent grains can also be sold as livestock feed as wet distillers grains or dried, in which case they are called distillers dried grains (DDG). If the syrup is added to the wet distillers grains and then dried, the resulting product is referred to as distillers dried grains with solubles (DDGS).
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Ozark
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Liberty - Thanks for the explanation of DDG's. The process you described is the same as in brewing beer, except for distilling of course. In brewing, the DDG's are called "spent grains" and they're good for compost, animal feed, etc. The liquid you describe would be the spent "sparge water" left after rinsing sugars out. I've never heard of a use for it - but if you had enough of it, I guess it could be animal feed. Makes sense.
I did some reading on "cellulosic ethanol" - which would be a big breakthrough if they could make it economically viable. I think that breakthrough is going to be necessary for ethanol to be practical. Fermenting food just isn't going to do it.
They're working on the cellulose problem, and maybe they'll solve it - who knows? I still say if they do they've solved "world hunger" as a side effect - so that's pretty significant.
Lots of the claims about "cellulosic ethanol" seem pretty phony though - they're claiming the process produces NO greenhouse gases because the growing plants absorb as much CO2 as is produced in making and burning ethanol. Hmmm - I guess they've never been around a fermenter?
"Cellulosic ethanol" is sounding like the proverbial "Mexican cat ranch" for producing fur coats. Next door they build a rat farm, and the cats eat the rats and the rats eat the skinned cats - and the whole thing is self-sustaining. Somehow I think there's some natural laws being violated in that proposition.
We'll see.
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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The by products are viable, which is why I pointed out that the Webster Co plant location might have been picked do more to its location within an animal food source area. One can't completely discount corn in the area either, because it is raised just to the west and north, but I admit I don't know the volume. I do know there's a chicken or turkey house, or two, in the area. A few cattle and hogs too. The sugar in corn doesn't have to be fermented to be extracted. I don't know the process, only that its often used in producing corn syrup.
As far as the amount of energy in Ethanol, where is gasoline, extraction, piping, shipping, refining, distribution?
The complaint from Ethanol supporters that the opposition is counting the phone call to order corn seed in the equation might be valid.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
Edited by Hellbender (10/10/07 06:55 PM)
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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Stanford did an air quality study, take it with a grain of corn
Ethanol likely reduces two carcinogens benzene and butadiene, but increase two others-formaldehyde and acetaldehyde
and contributes to increased ozone in some areas, i.e. smog
kind of a pick your poison, but I don't put much stock in studies until I know how it was done and who funded it.
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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in another study from Cornell so definitely take it with a grain or even a cobb of corn
"A Cornell University study that appeared in the journal Natural Resources Research in July 2005 found that producing ethanol from plants such as corn, sunflowers and soybeans uses more energy than the fuel generates.
In terms of energy output compared with the amount of energy required to produce ethanol, the study found:
* Corn requires 29 per cent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.
* Switch grass requires 45 per cent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.
* Wood biomass requires 57 per cent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.
Critics of the Cornell study argue that the researchers used outdated data to come to their conclusions. One of the researchers - Prof. David Piementel - had looked at ethanol's energy efficiency in the past and concluded it wasn't worth the effort. However, there's also a long list of studies that have found that the production of ethanol results in a net gain in energy - between 34 and 75 per cent. "
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Liberty
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and another prognosticator said this
" The social consequences are staggering. Since Ethanol fuels are inherently uneconomical. It costs (everything considered) $7.24 a gallon to produce and sells for roughly equal in price with gasoline as the $2.75 mark. The difference is made up by federal subsidies and the direct and indirect costs that farmers have to bear. The pressure for bringing the cost for inputs down is put on the shoulders of the poorest of the poor who are 'forced' into slave-labour type conditions for biomass production under which they are literally worked to death.
The end result is a fuel that costs more far more than gasoline, since far more energy is required to produce it than it gives back. But it also gives the user far less energy per gallon than gasoline does. The power that drives your car is produced by heat energy. In the combustion process air is rapidly heated that thereby expands and drives the mechanisms of your automobile engine. The produced power is the direct result of the heat energy generated by the fuel. A common measurement for heat energy is the "calorie" or in on the lager scale the kilocalorie. A kilocalorie is the amount of heat that is required to raise the temperature of one kilogram of water (2.2 pounds) by one degree centigrade. By this measurement the burning of one kilogram of gasoline produces about 10,500 kilocalories. However, the burning of one kilogram of ethanol produces only 7,140 kilocalories, or about 68% the energy of gasoline, while it costs several times more to produce. In comparison, hydrogen fuel produces 34,200 kilocalories per kilogram. That's more than 3 times the energy content by weight of gasoline, and nearly 5 times that of ethanol and could be produced for a fraction of the cost of gasoline, utilizing nuclear power. Nuclear power produces 2 million times the heat energy of gasoline, per kilogram, or 3 million times that of coal or ethanol. As a fuel per ton, burning ethanol is roughly equal to burning a ton of coal."
Obviously, you need a few bushels of corn to accept all of what was being said here as there was a class warfare element to it, seriously damaging the credibility of the information provided
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
" The social consequences are staggering. Since Ethanol fuels are inherently uneconomical. It costs (everything considered) $7.24 a gallon to produce and sells for roughly equal in price with gasoline as the $2.75 mark. The difference is made up by federal subsidies and the direct and indirect costs that farmers have to bear. The pressure for bringing the cost for inputs down is put on the shoulders of the poorest of the poor who are 'forced' into slave-labour type conditions for biomass production under which they are literally worked to death.
I don't know where you got that Lib, but its one of the dumbest anti Ethanol statements I've heard. The term Labour does smell, India maybe?
Quote:
Corn requires 29 per cent more fossil energy than the fuel produced.
Maybe they should burn Ethanol, or better yet Bio-Diesel. 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Some info;
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/v33_3_00/ethanol.htm
Quote:
devoting even more of the crop to making ethanol means higher prices for corn-dependent products ranging from soft drinks to bacon. The price of tortillas in Mexico rose 14% last year, a significant hardship for those who depend on corn as their dietary staple. Not to mention the fact that increased corn production also comes at the expense of other crops:
Daumn! 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
Edited by Hellbender (10/10/07 08:40 PM)
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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And then there's this, enough to warm the heart of any liberal, and make Hillary wet herself.
"Although powering our cars with corn is vastly more expensive than other alternatives, this choice seems to be tremendously popular with most Americans. If an economist were asked to justify this attitude, the argument would have to be that the market cost of imported oil vastly understates its true cost to us in terms of geopolitical implications of U.S. dependence on foreign oil. But if that is the underlying rationale, the preferred economic solution would not be a subsidy to corn producers, but rather a tax on oil imports. "
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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that last one I posted up came from some damn Canadian, as with all opinions they are to be questioned
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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More.
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/mar2007/db20070316_016207.htm
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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old lodge skins
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 381
Loc: Porche's Prairie, MO
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Here goes the partially educated blue collar retiree again.
I thought about this issue a few times today while I was away from the 'puter doing chores and errands. As to what Mr Griffin mentioned up thread about the creation of good paying jobs being good for the local economy those good paying jobs could be very short lived. Local news is already talking about possible bankruptcies because the price of corn is up and the price of ethanol is down,
That lousy 1:1.34 energy in to energy out ratio doesn't factor in the cost of the purchasing the corn. So guess what, it just gets worse. Pick a number, if corn is worth $2.50, $3.00, $4.00, 8.00 a bushell the equation just gets worse.
I also forgot to mention that a gallon of gasoline is worth something like 1.5 the "go-power" of a gallon of ethanol.
I have no connection nor loyalty to the petroleum industry.
I think that what it has done to prices in the USA and worldwide over the past 30 to 35 years is CRIMINAL.
I would love to see America not to need a drop of oil from the middle east.
I just think that corn-ethanol, at least in its current incarnation, is not an answer, and that most of those who say that it is, are CRIMINALLY deceptive. Does anybody suppose that this energy in/energy out ratio wasn't previously computed?
If this was such a great investment opportunity do you think that it would have been made available to a bunch of local farmers?
Setting yourself up with a golden parachute when a company or facility goes belly up should be a capital offense,
especially if it was premeditated.
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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The problem is that while all this negative info is going on Casey's is still pushing E10 or 15, can't remember, and now Murphy's is selling it.
I think the fact that Murphy's is pushing it is significant because they are a big time Gulf of Mexico driller. If they can extend that supply, we are better off.
Course I know none of those Arabian Gulf monkeys would feed any negative info, nor would our good buddy Huego do any thing like that, or would they?
Quote:
Here goes the partially educated blue collar retiree again.
well I went college and got my master's and I'm now retired, actually I went to college two years and was a Master Electrician, worked in the dirt.
At my age you'll have to excuse me if experience makes me just as suspicious of the anti Ethanol stuff as I am of all the solid "Man Causes Global Warming" crap.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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old lodge skins
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 381
Loc: Porche's Prairie, MO
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HB even though it seems that our beliefs on this ethanol issue are contradictory I respect your willingness to look fairly at the issue. If you average out what the 'pros' offer with what the 'cons' have to say, the economics still look pretty poor.
I dropped out of college with a mere 92 credit hours. I was an insulator/asbestos worker. I worked the most in coal fired power generation but quite a bit in other industries.
I think that ethanol is good as a gasoline additive at this point, but corn ethanol is not a viable substitute for gasoline.......yet. I am intrigued with the concept of Hydrogen as an internal combustion engine fuel, but I do not know enough about the subject to feel entitled to an opinion. I think that what Caseys is doing has more to do with making points with the Ag folks than anything else.
What I am familiar with is Caseys labeling gasohol as "Premium" yet selling it for the same or slightly less than regular unleaded. I have no reason to doubt the science of awarding the gasohol the extra two or three octane points. I do, however suspect that the average American driver still does not realize that he probably gets no benefit from a couple more octane points.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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I'm against ethanol strictly because it increases the price of kettle corn, damn beetches
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hillbilly
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Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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old - I think you pretty well summed it up. Griffin doesn't seem to realize that construction on the ethanol plant boom is already busting. As you said, they have nearly priced themselves out of a job already. The worst thing is not the temporary labor jobs associated with the plants going away, it is the farmers losing their collective asses surrounding these plants. We all know the farmers are what drives those local economies.
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Ozark
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Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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I know this much about fermentation. Yeast consumes simple sugar and changes it into an equal weight of ethanol and CO2 gas. The alcohol stays liquid, and the CO2 bubbles off into the atmosphere.
I'm going fishing today, but when I get back I'll figure something out. What's the weight of a gallon of ethanol? 7 or 8 lbs., I imagine. Whatever that weight is - how much volume does an equal weight of CO2 occupy?
I'll find out, but that's a big bunch of CO2 for every gallon of ethanol made - and that's not counting the additional CO2 that's released when ethanol burns.
You'd think the enviro-wackos would be throwing a fit about that.
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
If you average out what the 'pros' offer with what the 'cons' have to say, the economics still look pretty poor.
But that only works if you assume equality in in whats true. You, nor anyone else can deny the enormous financial advantage that the fossil fuel side has. Whats the penalty for putting out false information?, Nothing.
Quote:
I am intrigued with the concept of Hydrogen as an internal combustion engine fuel
The Germans thought it was a great gas for Dirigibles, until the Hindenburg.
Quote:
I think that what Casey's is doing has more to do with making points with the Ag folks than anything else.
Well I believe originally it was to help farmers, the company was conceived and started by Iowa farmers, but the corn surplus has long since passed. As far as Premium goes, thats an industry standard, but I agree its not needed.
I do question why the anti's insist on basing their energy gain/loss on using fossil fuel to raise corn. Does that slant the figures compared to using bio fuels?
The per gallon "subsidy is in the form a tax not collected. Is a tax not collected bad, should we collect more taxes on items, if we don't tax soybean oil or bread as a production tax are we subsidizing them?
Ozark, the CO2 argument works until this question is asked, "How much CO2 is absorbed in extracting oil, compared to how much is absorbed by the corn grown to produce the Ethanol?" How does that balance out with the CO2 emitted by burning fossil fuel?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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old lodge skins
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 381
Loc: Porche's Prairie, MO
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At current pricing levels, I believe that the situation would look even worse if we figured the farmers using bio-fuels for planting, fertilizing, spraying, cultivating, and harvesting their corn.
The fact is, right now anyway, they ARE using fossil fuels.
I am not on the "fossil fuel side". I have always been in favor of developing alternative energy sources.
I am just in favor of truth and reality.
America should have been seriously working on all of these ideas since the mid seventies when suddenly a gallon of gasoline was no longer $.25.
The energy 'shocker' I will always remember is the first time I spent ten whole dollars to fill my gas tank.
Then we all got complacent and learned to live with it till this summer, on a couple of occasions, I filled up my truck and my two five gallon mower gas cans and was right at the $100 mark.
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sptsman
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 6196
Loc: Missouri
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Good Lord!!! I got a headache just reading a small portion of all this internet, genius banter.
Don't any of you folks just use the stink test or common sense when it comes to crap like bio-fuels and global warming and hot chicks that want you? For Pete's sake, this bio-fuel thing has been a farce for years. It is commonly regarded as the inside joke at the Dept. of Energy and the Dept. of Agriculture.
Here's a thought, why don't we take the single most important source of food in our system and use it for a inefficient fuel source? We can drive the price of food up and create a fuel source that can't possibly sustain itself , at the expense of our food supply... Brilliant!!
I think people just don't think anymore. Enough blah, blah, blah, blah and much of society will go along with blah, blah, blah, blah... This one is so simple it is embarrassing that there is even conversation about it...
Wake up you knuckleheads, this is a farce!!!!
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"Hunts are best measured by the endurance of the memories they produce..."
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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So most are in favor of sending big chunks of money to the big sand box in the east and to the new dictator to the south.
So how many of you have sons and grandsons to throw into confronting the byproduct of this? Ragheads that couldn't afford a firecracker now have enough money to fly around the world looking for a cause worthy of 72 virgins.
We're not fighting a war there to maintain oil supplies, but because of the toys that money has brought the region.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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griffin
administrator
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 9625
Loc: the most dangerous city in Ame...
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I have a son who will fight when he comes of age.
griffin
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"The Irish are one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever." - Sigmund Freud
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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I'm in favor of oil exploration it is the best energy source
I'm also in favor of using our forest inventory for what it is good for in every way, that means lumber too, not just a place for huggers to go commune
I'm in favor of exploring alternative energy, but only if it can be a better source of energy. I like solar and wind and methane from waste for electric generation. I like more and more people being off the grid. But in the end, exploit the oil because it is what we have the infrastructure for and it is currently the best source. Bio-diesel ain't a bad proposition, I like the work done by that grad student last year that was turning logs into bio-fuel. I'm a huge fan of nuclear, would much rather we had more nuclear power plants than hydroelectric plants, but for irrigation needs I believe hydroelectric plants need to be combined, but if solely for hydroelectric, I would have to look at other possibilities. I like the geothermal ideas, don't know much about them, but they seem to work well for Iceland. Coal is something America has a lot of, so use it. Natural gas is something we have an abundance of as well.
But in the end, oil is king, we just need our own sources of it. Enough that we don't have to continue to fund the malcontents of the world.
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griffin
administrator
Reged: 12/13/05
Posts: 9625
Loc: the most dangerous city in Ame...
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Keep funding them.....it's easier to see them and kill them that way.
griffin
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"The Irish are one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever." - Sigmund Freud
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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This is a great, convenient bending of stats. web page
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
I have a son who will fight when he comes of age.
I'm sure my G'kids will too, but I want them to fight to keep the Americans free, not the sheiks in Mercedes. 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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if you want to fight to keep Americans free start at the ballot box and in your city council and state governments and pressure your congressional delegation first.
no sense fighting overseas for freedom when the greatest threat to that freedom exists in the Democratic Party and within the country club element of the Republican Party.
Islamofacists are a great threat, as well. But this ship needs to be righted, as well (pun intended).
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JJ McGuire
Reged: 06/01/06
Posts: 357
Loc: Chester Springs, PA
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Pa. wind energy: Real or hot air?
Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:54 AM EDT
By Ad Crable
Contributing Writer
Lancaster, Pa. - Wind power may still be the darling of many alternative-energy advocates. But concerns that wind farms kill migratory birds and fragment the last of Pennsylvania's unbroken forest ridges is causing some to jump off the bandwagon.
Erecting up to 400-foot-high turbines on state forestland is a possibility. So is development on some game lands, though the Pennsylvania Game Commission has declared wind turbines an ?incompatible use.?
In the beginning, wind power seemed like the perfect poster child for the alternative-energy crusade. It was an earth-friendly means of loosening the stranglehold of foreign oil.
Unlike its bedrock predecessor in Pennsylvania - coal - wind turbines promised cheap energy without scarring the environment. No acid-mine drainage, no strip mines, no soot, no global-warming gases, no siphoning of water, no clearcutting of forests.
Heck, they hardly make any noise. And when their work is done, you can simply disassemble the windmills, turning the mountaintops back to trees.
Already, with seven wind farms churning the air on ridgetops and wind-swept plateaus, and four more scheduled to begin turning in the wind this year, Pennsylvania is the top wind-energy producer east of the Mississippi.
But that's just a breeze compared to the hurricane of turbines Gov. Ed Rendell, utilities mandated to find alternative-energy power sources and wind-energy manufacturers hope to see adorning the state's high points.
They would like to see wind farm output 16 times higher within the next 15 years - enough to power almost 85,000 homes. According to the American Wind Energy Association, a trade group, there is enough wind-energy potential to power almost 5 million homes.
And, indeed, as many as 60 more wind farms are being explored, including a 10,000-acre proposal on Shaffer Mountain in Somerset County calling for 30 turbines, each 404 feet all.
The City of Harrisburg is inviting wind-energy developers to consider land it owns on top of Peters Mountain, north of the city, near the Appalachian Trail and the Stony Creek Wilderness.
Rendell has already enticed Spain's Iberdrola, the world's leading developer of wind farms, and Gamesa Energy, also of Spain, a leading wind farm developer and turbine blade manufacturer, to locate their U.S. beachheads in eastern Pennsylvania.
A vastly expanded wind energy field is a linchpin in the governor's proposed $850 million Energy Independence Fund.
Though the wind farms, to date, have been on private lands, the push for wind also has put pressure on public lands.
The state Department of Conservation and Natural Resources is exploring whether to allow wind turbines on about 38,000 acres of what it considers non-sensitive state forestland on Appalachian ridges in the south and southcentral parts of the state. Wind farms would not be allowed in state parks or the 12 northcentral counties in the ?Pennsylvania Wilds'' region being developed for eco-tourism.
The Legislature and the governor would have to give DCNR the authority to allow wind farms. DCNR expects to decide before the end of the year if it will seek that authority.
The Pennsylvania Game Commission has deemed wind power a ?noncompatible use? for its 1.4 million acres of hunter-purchased game lands, but has left the door slightly open if a developer can prove a better site can't be found and replacement land is made.
But as with ethanol, another alternative energy out of the gate with breakneck speed, daunting questions are emerging about wind energy and the bandwagon is losing some riders.
Wind projects around the state, largely unregulated by state environmental laws, are finding themselves hindered by lawsuits and organized residents.
Among the concerns now being voiced by some scientists and environmental groups about wind farms in Pennsylvania:
- The number of ridge-riding migratory birds, especially bats and golden eagles, drawn to and killed by turbine blades.
Pennsylvania's Allegheny and Appalachian ridges are among the most heavily used migration routes on the Atlantic Coast. Scientists say studies just don't exist yet in Pennsylvania to determine whether turbines here pose a serious threat to birds.
High plateaus are not of concern.
- The effect on animals, reptiles, amphibians and ground-nesting birds by fragmenting the state's remaining unbroken forests with high-rise windmills and accompanying access roads and power-line swaths.
?We're talking about industrial wind farms with massive roads,? said Tim Maret, a biologist at Shippensburg University who has advised the Pennsylvania Game Commis-sion and the Pennsylvania Biological Survey, a scientist group, on wind farm matters.
?Just carrying up the blades takes a semi truck. To fragment these large areas is going to have pretty detrimental effects.?
-- The aesthetics of adorning the state's most visible land features and wild areas with tall, dimly lit turbines.
The sacrifices to wildlife and, as one Fayette County resident puts it, ?a psychology of loss stemming from the public's traditional attachment to Pennsylvania's open areas,? may not be worth the relatively small reduction in global-warming carbon emissions, some say.
Maret estimates it would take 635 wind turbines on 80 miles of ridgetops to get a mere 1 percent reduction in global-warming carbon emissions from Pennsylvania's current output.
The ensuing debate is causing an internal soul-searching among environmental groups, many of which had initially embraced the technology, and has even pitted some environmentalists against each other.
For example, recently the Wind Truth Coalition, a newly formed umbrella of groups pushing for tougher siting regulations for wind farms, met in the Capitol Building to protest Rendell's gung-ho wind energy charge.
But PennFuture, one of the state's largest environmental groups, chided the groups, calling them ?well-meaning but totally misinformed activists.
?There is no perfect form of energy, but wind power comes closest to being perfect,? said PennFuture President John Hangar. ?We cannot let our need for clean and affordable energy be blocked by a search for a mythical perfect technology.?
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keeping it rural
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Ozark
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Every way of producing energy has a negative side - every single one of them. From the modern problem of spent nuclear fuel to the horse poop and wood-smoke pollution of 100 years ago, there's a down side to any way you do it.
Environmentalists get publicity and make a living by hollering about the negative side of every form of energy production. That's not helpful. It would be helpful if they'd work on minimizing the bad effects instead, because the bottom line is that we need lots of energy and it has to be produced somehow.
Environmentalists are trying to get back to a "pristine" continent that never existed - back before the evil Europeans came. The reality is that back then Indians were driving whole buffalo herds off cliffs, poisoning fish, cannibalizing each other, and lightning-caused forest fires burned uncontrolled from coast to coast.
It's true that the Indians didn't screw up the environment as much as do - but that's only because there weren't many of them. Environmentalists need to forget about Hiawatha and realize that an advanced nation of 300+ million people has to have a massive amount of energy and fuel. Then they should work constructively on minimizing the bad effects of the various ways we produce and use that energy.
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sptsman
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 6196
Loc: Missouri
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Quote:
Liberty said:
Bio-diesel ain't a bad proposition, I like the work done by that grad student last year that was turning logs into bio-fuel.
Sometimes I feel like I'm in a time warp or a bad dream, where people keep walking into walls and aren't smart enough to stop and look for a door. Bio-fuels are great for the feel-good liberals, wacko environmentalists and businessmen, that are willing to take advantage of the aforementioned groups, as well as the gullible. But, I repeat, they have no viability as cost effective sustainable alternative to even 1% of our energy needs. You don't even have to look into the science of it. Any 8th grader can figure out the economics and see it will not work. (I reserve the right to change this position if we find a way to produce several hundred time the amount of corn we now produce at substantially lower costs )
Nuclear, Hydroelectric, Wind, Coal and the like are all fine. They aren't the best but each can take a little piece of the need and fulfill it. What makes these different from bio-fuels is the fact that none of them require the excessive use of our food source to make a difference.
If you look at the economics of bio-fuels and stay on that bandwagon, you are hopeles. Go fight a windmill, because you are in fact dreaming the impossible dream... 
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"Hunts are best measured by the endurance of the memories they produce..."
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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I love the fact that everything kills migratory birds
no matter what it is, one of the first tactic is always that migratory birds get killed by it. 
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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sportsmn, did you fail to realize that my entire post was about petroleum being the best and one thing we need to keep getting more of?
now as to any alternative fuel, they need to be developed, now bio-fuels don't have to use food products.
Now as you may or may not know, America no longer uses its forests. Plain and simple, liberal kooks such as Hellbender have allowed our forests to become overgrown tinderboxes. I mentioned the kid's research because he changed logs into a friggin' substance very much like crude oil and crafted a form of gasoline from it.
now pansies like Hellbender, of course, will never allow you or anyone for that matter to cut down a tree in a national forest either for lumber or for bio fuel, and so this alternative resource goes unused and currently burns up at a rate of about 7-10 million acres per year, to whack libs like Hellbender this is just fine, soon we can have the Rocky Mountains be nothing but vast grasslands, which had he not been in the pocket of Big Ethanol he probably would get mad if in 50 years someone wanted to mow it.
AGAIN---OIL IS KING
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
lightning-caused forest fires burned uncontrolled from coast to coast.
Thats not true Ozark, didn't you read Libs cut and paste, the Indians had a forest service second to none.
Sptsman, corn is not the only source available, and Bio Diesel isn't relying on corn at all.
Everyone wants to bring up the economics, while you're doing that maybe you could set a point in time, are we talking oil at $55, $85, $120, or out of sight because of a conflict? Its like the Popular Mechanics chart I posted, and I noticed no one wanted to discuss, where they put a 33 mpg Honda burning gas against a 17 mpg Taurus burning E85, and then said "SEE", like another Liberty moment.
Quote:
now pansies like Hellbender, of course, will never allow you or anyone for that matter to cut down a tree in a national forest either for lumber or for bio fuel
Liberty you have the "last word" mentality of a 4 year old, the attention of 3 year old and the memory capacity of a frog. I've never said what you seem to want to think I said. No I don't want to give the land to some flunky's running the county road crew, no I don't want to sell it to private owners who would shut the gates and clear cut it and turn it into tree farms. You have this moronic idea that if we sell it or give the National Forest away, they will immediately thin the millions of acres, but they won't and your idea is retarded and fueled by ignorance. Googling information doesn't make you an expert.
Don't fight over the forest, fight retardation, something you might benefit from. 
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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hey you believe in the myth of wilderness as stated in the 1964 wilderness act, and you've already gone on record to agree with it, you googled it and quoted from it and that's why you are nothing but a damn ecoterrorist
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Liberty
member
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Posts: 5796
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"where they put a 33 mpg Honda burning gas against a 17 mpg Taurus burning E85, and then said "SEE", like another Liberty moment."--Hellbender
now that's just hilarious a Honda outperforming a Ford
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
hey you believe in the myth of wilderness as stated in the 1964 wilderness act, and you've already gone on record to agree with it, you googled it and quoted from it
Prove that, or STFU.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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so you went back and edited it didn't you? Figures, damn liberal
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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but not all of your stupidity has gone unedited
two of my favorites from Hellbender
On July 30, 2007
Hellbender said
?What I want is for wildernesses to be wildernesses. I know the difference between the national Forest and the wildernesses, I also know what many of the past problems were, and it wasn't the greenies as much as the Honda driving yuppies who wan the forest to look like a lawn, that way it blends with their lawn. Then when a fire comes they want us to provide fire protection from the tender box they live in.?
now that kind of flies in the face of all your posts that said the people aren't doing anything to protect their land, so which is it, can't have it both ways
On August 20, 2007 Hellbender said
?WHAT!, why do we have to do anything, why can't we just leave them alone and let people enjoy them? We can cut the number of employees in both the BLM and FS, make some simple rules that address leaving the land somewhat natural and get out of the way.
You on the other hand, like all liberals, want to have people believe that we can simply let the market do it. How would that work? Would we let companies just make a run at the forest in some anarchist form? You know what it would be, the FS and BLM, who holds more lands in trust than the FS does, would explode in the number of employees added to the civil service want not wagon while adding more votes for your Democrats.?
Why can't we just leave them alone, uhh because the forests were not left alone for 10,000 years, then there's your completely stupid statement that liberals say the market can do it, dumbass that's what conservatives say, not liberals, did your Soros training fail you again?
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hillbilly
member
Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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Well Liberty, Ozark kind of hit on it but you will never admit it. What a land based society does with it's environment cannot be compared to industrialized use. Doing so just makes your argument ignorant and pointless. No further debate is needed. You cannot make a valid comparison between the two.
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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so you want to leave it alone, place it into a reality the forest has never known for 10,000 years
Catastrophic fire is on the rise and you want to stick your head in the sand because you can't stomach a tree being removed
typical liberal response
I'm glad to see the libs have successfully brainwashed basically everyone who doesn't have to live with the consequences of leave it alone policy
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"Environmentalists are trying to get back to a "pristine" continent that never existed - back before the evil Europeans came. The reality is that back then Indians were driving whole buffalo herds off cliffs, poisoning fish, cannibalizing each other, and lightning-caused forest fires burned uncontrolled from coast to coast.
It's true that the Indians didn't screw up the environment as much as do - but that's only because there weren't many of them. Environmentalists need to forget about Hiawatha and realize that an advanced nation of 300+ million people has to have a massive amount of energy and fuel. Then they should work constructively on minimizing the bad effects of the various ways we produce and use that energy."--Ozark
Ozark I think you may want to provide clarity to your answer as hillbilly has taken these words and constructed an argument against man interface with the forests
are you saying we should just leave them alone as Hellbender and hillbilly suggest or do we tap into this natural resource as I and everyone who lives near the damn forest suggests
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hillbilly
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Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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"Ozark I think you may want to provide clarity to your answer as hillbilly has taken these words and constructed an argument against man interface with the forests"--Liberty
No, Liberty, again one of your unreasoned responses. I said he "kind of" hit on it. Again there is no need to argue because I knew what your response would be. Go back and read some of my other responses and I'm sure you will find where I have agreed with the conservative use of our national natural resources. I will not however, agree with the privatization of our national forests. A monculture, intensively managed tree farm will never replace a naturally functioning forest and the biodiversity associated with it. Get over it. Conservative, managed and sustainable use can be utilized for the benefit of man without unduly upsetting natures balance. But, you will never agree with a centrists point of view so why bother.
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hillbilly
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Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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Liberty, I now dub thee "Mega Firestorm" from here on out. Your mantra, taken directly from the alarmist's liberal playbook: "Today?s infernos sometimes tower above the ground and reach 3,000?F, hot enough to melt metal. They can travel 20 miles in a day and sterilize soils."
Edited by hillbilly (10/12/07 03:42 PM)
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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that happens to be true, laugh all you want, but there's literally mountains of evidence of that fact, mountains and again I didn't say it, a forestry man in California did.
as to your centrist's view, a centrist would realize that the forest service can't take care of the land it has, in that case a centrist would realize that some of that land needs new owners.
You are no centrist and simply support the liberal view
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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"a naturally functioning forest"--hillbilly
how about you explain what a naturally functioning forest is rather than simply mentioning it as if it is somehow common knowledge, you see that's all you ever get out of envirowhackos and forest service spokespeople, no explanation of what they actually mean, is a naturally functioning forest one that is overgrown as is the case with the vast majority of our national forests? Is a naturally functioning forest one that completely burns away each summer? Is a naturally functioning forest one where after the firestorm we get years and years of erosion and debris in the rivers? Is a naturally functioning forest one where people do not interact with? I'm curious to see what your answer is, because it either is as shallow as a pond in the sahara or more likely your definition likely dovetails perfectly with the man is the problem crowd so rather than puss out and say silly things like there's no sense arguing how about you grow a pair and explain to me what a naturally functioning forest is in hillbilly's world. Of course you won't, since you've adopted the Hellbender puss syndrome
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hillbilly
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Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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Well, you sure have me there "firestorm". With a BS in Fisheries and Wildlife management and minor in forestry management, I would still have a hard time explaining to the likes of you what a naturally functioning forest is comprised of. I will however explain to you what it isn't. It isn't an intensively managed monoculture with a scorched earth policy of management to control any and all competition to increase the output of the merchantable product. Yet, this is what you would advocate with your arguments.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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so you advocate the let it burn policy and the leave it alone policy, that's what you are saying without saying it of course, I would never expect you to actually come out and say it because saying it immediately paints a picture of you as an idiot who learned about the forest in books at a university and then possibly even visited one once to decree to those of us who live here how your way is best just before you ran back to your house in the city.
but I especially enjoyed the fact that you are still a puss, a learned one at that.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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let me fill the vacuum for the learned puss
he believes a naturally functioning forest is one where man has been removed, because he learned his BS in a public university where the idea that man has been the problem has been a common theme since the 1960s at least.
what hillbilly is too afraid to say is that he doesn't believe people should live near the forests, he will say something erroneous like the 30 mile alarm bell signaled by the idiots at Washington State University and he will lament perhaps even voice a clarion call for the destructiveness of the urban interface, he of course will fail to mention the fact that almost every major city in the American west is well within 30 miles of a national forest. He will then say that the national forests, which by definition are not wilderness, should be managed as wilderness. He will of course tell you that I believe all the national forests should be sold to a monster logging company that will cut it all down, at this point Hellbender will chime in and say where will my kiddies hunt. Of course I have only said that at most 33 percent of the forests should be sold to either the states who manage their forest land better than the federal government or to private people in small acreage amounts of 40, 80, 160, 320 or 640 acres. But of course that can't be repeated for a BS holding hillbilly (damn I haven't even played my doctorate card yet) He will then say that the recent firestorms are just natural, which of course begs the question when was the last time these forests were truly natural, ya know allowed to just burn until the snow flies, and when did these forests not have man in them providing some sort of management, well we are going back 10,000 years now to get to a natural state and conveniently we have little to no data on how that played out. Meanwhile good decent people lose their homes no matter what precautions they take, fires burn hotter than before because the excessive fuel loads from both suppression and anti-logging policies, ladder fuels have increased and lodgepole forests are completely incinerating, but ponderosa dominated forests are also going up, leaving vast wastelands that fall into our rivers and kill all the fish. Meanwhile wildlife walks up into our yards, falls over and dies from hunger because they can't find food because the fires burned for several thousand square miles.
I see that degree did you a lot of good, so did you ever actually get a job in fisheries or wildlife or forestry, just wondering since an authority would have long ago argued some of these points, but I'm guessing you might do better at serving me a Slurpee than talk intelligently about forests you've never seen.
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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5 Myths about Forests and Wildfires
It is important to distinguish between fact and fiction regarding certain myths that may advance agendas but block ecologically sound forest management. Those myths include:
Myth #1: We have to live with catastrophic wildfire. No, we don?t. Managing our forests to reduce fuel loads can make them safe again. Catastrophic wildfire was not a frequent occurrence in California?s historic forests; it need not be frequent today.
Myth #2: Fire is natural and good. There is a world of difference between the low-intensity fires that shaped California?s landscape for thousands of years and the mega-fires that now devastate thousands of acres at a time. Low-level fires cleared the forest floor of debris and regenerated forests. But we have suppressed natural fire for more than 100 years. Wildfires can now feast on unnatural fuel loads, decimate wildlife, sterilize soils and erase forests from the landscape for centuries.
Myth #3: Today?s forests are natural forests. Research and photographic evidence show that California?s modern forests are vastly different from historic forests. Today?s forests are far thicker than their historic predecessors, densely packed with up to 10 times as many trees. Forests have become dangerously overgrown, much to the detriment of wildlife and biodiversity.
Myth #4: Escalating firefighting costs are inevitable. It?s true that average firefighting costs have increased by more than $100 million per year since the early 1990s, but the trend does not have to continue. Spending a fraction of what we spend on fighting fires to manage forests so there are fewer dangerous fires in the first place could save taxpayers millions.
Myth #5: Commercial logging denudes hillsides and kills wildlife. Private forestland owners have proven that modern forest management can provide habitat for diverse wildlife and sustain forests for generations. The most productive forestland in California is privately owned, and research confirms that wildlife and fisheries from salmon and owls to deer and songbirds flourish on managed lands.
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hillbilly
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Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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5 Myths about Forests and Wildfires about Myths about Forests and Wildfires
#1: We can't realistically mechanically thin our national forests on any scale large enough to suit Firestorm without the use of fire.
#2. Fire is natural and good and much more fire was natural as opposed to man induced throughout history.
#3. Today's forests are natural. They are a natural response to the suppression of fire and introduction of non-native species. They are doing what nature intended for them to do.
#4. Inflation and Drought.
#5. Commercial logging is a viable management tool to maintain natural forests in convenient successional stages. Industrial/commercial forestry reduces biodiversity, period.
"I see that degree did you a lot of good, so did you ever actually get a job in fisheries or wildlife or forestry, just wondering since an authority would have long ago argued some of these points, but I'm guessing you might do better at serving me a Slurpee than talk intelligently about forests you've never seen."--Firestorm
16 yrs. so far. Every point you try to make about the ravages of fire have been occurring for millenia. Forests burn, wildlife dies blah, blah, blah. It's on a time scale you apparrently can't grasp. Maybe the doctorate has filled your mind to over capacity. You fail to grasp simple, natural environmental cause and effect. Nature will react to our input and reach an equalibrium at some point. It won't be in your's or your children/grandchildren's lifetimes. Your Al Gore alarmist bullchit is just that, Firestorm. Bullchit. 
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Liberty
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You fail to grasp simple, natural environmental cause and effect. Nature will react to our input and reach an equalibrium at some point. It won't be in your's or your children/grandchildren's lifetimes.--Slurpee Engineer
are we a part of nature or not? You see Al Gore would say we aren't, I say we are
Nature will react to our input? Wow, now that's just astounding intellect on display their hillbilly was that chapter 1 of your degree in all things bullchit that you bragged about earlier?
So if nature will react to our input and come to some equilibrium, uhh what's wrong with thinning the forests again?
go sit in the corner with Hellbender and Ozark, the three of you can circle jerk for a while until you have an argument
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Liberty
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"Industrial/commercial forestry reduces biodiversity, period."--Slurpee engineer
uhh, prove this, I know you got an online degree in frozen treats but I'm sorry you really need to support your arguments, you obviously are not an authority as you have yet to make me sweat.
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Liberty
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"We can't realistically mechanically thin our national forests on any scale large enough to suit Firestorm without the use of fire."--Assistant Slurpee Dispenser
uhh, fire can be used as a means to thin the forest, but what your government thinks is a great plan is to simply light fires or allow fires to burn that were lit naturally in overloaded fuel areas that are not prepared to receive fire, thereby burning up everything, old growth included and what we get is an entirely new landscape.
for a degree holder I find it odd that the greatest ecological threat to the fish and the wildlife and the forest gets a pass, but the least threat, man with a chain saw is seen as the devil
again, who's the Al Gore here, there ain't nothing conservative about your argument dude, I hate to break it to you, but you're dispensing nothing but liberal drivel in those slurpees.
where'd you get that degree again? Was it online?
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Liberty
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when's the last time you were in a western forest, come on slurpee boy you are obviously trying to be an authority, so when was the last time you were out here in one of these forests? And when was the last time you witnessed a forest fire out here in the forests that the enviros won't allow to be touched?
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Liberty
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I guess he'll come back in about three or four days when he thinks he's constructed an argument
here's a clue BS boy, try providing some actual facts that support your government mantras the forest service provided for you
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hillbilly
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Loc: Cedar County
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A few simple searches would provide all the scientific evidence you seek. You would argue agianst the validity of all of it. Besides, you're simply not worth the effort. You see firestorm, when you let common sense go, the truth soon follows. I have made the argument for common sense approaches to forest management and you have denied the truth in them all. Your argument however, is so far from the truth that all common sense is lost. Yet you keep digging and the hole get's deeper? and another
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Liberty
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obviously the fact that you are a puss doesn't bother you.
hey dumbass, I've posted up scientific research to the contrary and you are scared to post up anything that supports your argument.
uhhm, try answering a question in the future then maybe your argument can have some validity
when was the last time you were in one of these western forests, surely that isn't that hard to answer...or is it
you see when you lead with you have a BS degree in fisheries wildlife and forestry and then several days later you say you've worked in it for 16 years, kind of rings like bullchit to me, in that if you actually have 16 years experience in one of these disciplines you would never lead with your college work, people normally lead with their actual experience, so I'm going to have to call bullchit on your entire argument until of course you can prove to me you actually have a damn clue, because to date, you are providing me with nothing, absolutely nothing. You keep trying though, k, BS bad ass
so when was the last time you were in a western forest and when was the last time you spent time in an area that burned?
simple questions, I'm sure you can blow me away with your authoritative knowledge, well actually I'm sure you won't because you can't
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Liberty
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well obviously the internet BS bad ass puss has never been to a western forest or to a western forest that has burned, so one has to wonder just how authoritative a guy can be when he actually knows nothing about what he is arguing, I can see why he would be scared to support his shallow arguments, he doesn't know where to start.
what forest in the west have you visited and what burned area did you visit?
After you answer that one you can answer what it is you've been doing for 16 years that you claim has something to do with fisheries, wildlife and forestry
Then after that you can maybe support your shallow argument.
There's scientific evidence out there to support damn near anything, what specific evidence are you drawing your bullchit conclusions from, if any? Come on dude these should be simple questions for such an authority with a BS degree.
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Liberty
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here's another simple question for BS bad ass
how big is a forest fire when it starts?
you blame increased costs on inflation and drought, but a forest fire starts as a very small thing it may be as little as one lightning strike on one tree or a small cluster of strikes in an area, in most cases it smolders for a few days before going anywhere, so as to your inflation and drought argument for the rising cost, uhhm, I think you are forgetting the ingrained culture of the forest firefighting community, a fire don't pay until it is too big to put out in a matter of days. So do you care to argue that again. You see we know exactly where the lightning hits, they've got a center in Boise for that and it pretty much pinpoints all the lightning strikes, and we know that a forest fire begins as a very small event and then explodes later into an uncontrollable event that requires thousands of firefighters for several weeks, so do you care to change your bullchit statement?
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Liberty
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of course, the BS bad ass hasn't yet explained what a naturally functioning forest is, he just believes that everyone accepts that he knows what one is, I sure as hell don't, you're just going to have to fill me in on your grand BS knowledge on the subject.
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Liberty
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and how is it that industrial/commercial logging reduces biodiversity period?
And when you get done answering that, explain in all your infinite BS bad ass wisdom how it is that worse effects from a firestorm don't do the same? Obviously there must be a distinction as to why one is bad and the other isn't in your crazy little man is the root of all problems world.
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Liberty
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dude's been back to once again not to answer simple questions, that's pretty damn sad, but expected from a puss who brags about a BS degree, dude they hand that chit out like condoms in public schools.
they are really simple questions, of course you probably never had to answer a question while getting your BS did you?
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Liberty
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and now he's come back again to yet again not answer simple questions what a jackass
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JJ McGuire
Reged: 06/01/06
Posts: 357
Loc: Chester Springs, PA
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ADM would be an excellent choice.
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keeping it rural
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Vogi
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Posts: 1756
Loc: Saline County, MO
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Never fear, help is on the way. Corn was down $.01 today.
And for the record, soybeans are the number protein source in the world. Not corn.
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Hellbender
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Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
Never fear, help is on the way.
No Chit! Oil is on the rise and all those bullchit figures comparing ethanol and gasoline are about to do an abrupt about face.
Not that it will matter, oil has been fluctuating like crazy, but Ozark and Liberty keep the blinders on and quote old figures like they were gospel.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Vogi
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Loc: Saline County, MO
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Wholesale Ethanol was $1.47/gallon this morning, and my local corn closed at $3.30. Just in case somebody needs to do some refiguring and update their charts.
I almost forgot to mention the cattle ate all the mixed DDG ration this morning, and last I knew the C02 tanks were still in working order at MME.
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Ozark
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Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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A year ago, crude oil was $65 a barrel and retail gasoline cost over $3.00 a gallon.
Now, crude oil is $85 a barrel and gasoline costs $2.59 a gallon at the pump.
The financial stories are all about "oil companies being squeezed by refining margins". They're about to report 3rd quarter profits, and it's expected that those profits will be lower than a year ago.
Companies like Exxon are sitting on billions of barrels of proven reserves, which they can get out of the ground for $4 to $10 per barrel. Their "upstream" profits are great, but they're settling for less profit in refining right now.
I think this is clear proof that the oil companies do conspire to control gasoline prices. In the wind-up to the election and with a Democrat Congress, they don't need any more record-profit headlines so they're keeping the retail price down right now.
As soon as they get a chance though, they'll raise gasoline prices back up to standard markup rates - which at $85 a barrel, would be $3.50-$4.00 per gallon. In the meantime, they're pumping and selling crude oil for record prices with the potential of doing that for a long time to come.
The stock market knows this, and that's why oil company stocks are still going straight up.
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Liberty
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if we are what we eat then DNA tests show that Americans are made up of mostly corn, since corn is fed to our animals that we eat and is also used in many other processes
I forget the name of the documentary that links America's corn diet to diabetes, but testing on hair samples showed the carbon in Americans' DNA was made up of up to 70 percent corn.
Thereby sticking yet another thorn in the side of ethanol, by raising the cost of (I think it was sptsman who said this) our most important food source we are poking a sharp stick in our eye
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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You just can't help yourself, can you dumbass?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Vogi
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Loc: Saline County, MO
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Quote:
Liberty said:
if we are what we eat then DNA tests show that Americans are made up of mostly corn
That doesn't seem to be the old joke I remember from grade school.
I'd try to explain it to you, but you just can't fix stupid. 
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Liberty
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I brought that up for a laugh, though a reporter did have her hair tested and it was 67 percent corn, take it for what it is, personally I hate anything that exits the body in the same form it went in  and farmers looking for another handout
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Liberty
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here you go HB and Vogi, it made me laugh too, but I saw some reporter babe talking about it and she focused on the diabetes, her hair being 67 percent corn and how corn is killing us all!!! 
here web page
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hillbilly
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Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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Ozark - They claim they are giving refined products away now due to inventories and demand. They will fix that by taking some refineries off line for maintenance and leaving them off-line for a while to fix the inventory problem. And even though they claim to be giving refined products away they will still record a 17 billion dollar profit. My how they are hurting, huh? Meanwhile, ethanol plants are closing down due to pricing themselves out of the market and producing more ethanol than there is a demand for!
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Liberty
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"And even though they claim to be giving refined products away they will still record a 17 billion dollar profit. My how they are hurting, huh?"--hillbilly
yet another typical response from someone who earns his living off the backs of taxpayers
hey profits are always good, don't disparage profits, in the end it even bites you government bureaucrats in the ass if profits fall off.
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Hellbender
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Loc: Taney County
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My question is, if I los some braen cels las nite drinking corn liker, can I replace em ef I ate corn puffs for brekfas?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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most people could, but I am sure that you couldn't
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Ozark
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Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Quote:
hillbilly said:
Ozark - They claim they are giving refined products away now due to inventories and demand.
The people who run major oil companies aren't stupid.
Right now if they stuck with their normal markup for refining, gas would be $4 a gallon and they'd be posting record profits (instead of near-record profits).
The results of that wouldn't be pretty, for them.
Congress and Democrat candidates would make political hay before the election. A "windfall tax" would be enacted and tax credits for oil exploration would be repealed. Bush might veto that, but if he did even Republican congressmen running for re-election would be scrambling to override his veto.
The news media would convince Americans that ExxonMobil, Chevron, and ConocoPhillips are bigger enemies than Al Queda.
A Million-Mom caravan of S.U.V.'s would storm Washington, demanding to put Hillary in the Oval Office before the end of this year. Snipers on the White House roof would be picking 'em off, right through their Spandex jogging bras.
No, I'd say gas will stay under $3 a gallon until next November. After that, I don't know what the oil companies will do - they'll have to return to normal refining margins sometime. If there's a Democrat President and Congress, that may be a big problem for them.
Or it may not. After the election when the heat's off, they can probably bribe enough politicians of both parties to keep Congress off their ass. Then gas prices will go 'way up.
And in the meantime, those "near-record profits" ain't bad.
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Hellbender
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Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
No, I'd say gas will stay under $3 a gallon until next November.
Aw they would never manipulate politics, would they? How about Ethanol figures?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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look HB ethanol is a jackass product subsidized to the hilt, if you are so damn worried about farmers eat more corn
ethanol will never replace gasoline, NEVER
it's a piss poor product that is subsidized by politicians who have pulled the wool over your eyes.
PETROLEUM RULES, EXXON ROCKS
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Hellbender
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Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
ethanol will never replace gasoline, NEVER
of course it won't, but gasoline and petroleum diesel will never be as cheap some would have us believe.
Every gallon of Ethanol helps Americans, every gallon of gas helps some dictator or camel jockey somewhere.
We know where some of you stand, and who you stand for, but we need a replacement combustion fuel, and right now Ethanol is the quickest replacement.
If we were independent of foreign oil, even if we could only sustain it a few years, we would have most enemies by the gonads, and for those that have domestic supplies, they wouldn't have us by the gonads.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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we have a domestic supply but since there are so called conservatives like you who won't allow us to use our damn resources, how on earth will we ever beat the damn envirowhacko lawyer brigade
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Listen close Dork Weed, your figures are skewed.
Today you have to give some Camel Jockeys pa $2.11 cents for the crude to make a gallon of gas. You can give an American farmer $1.42 for the corn to make a gallon of Ethanol.
The list of BS fact picking differences are right out of the book, "How to blow smoke up an Americans ass" , handbook of the left.
Gas is produced on very refined technology that was paid for long ago, Ethanol is just getting started, and some don't want to do the research, but would rather jack off some Sheik to save a little money, even if it goes to an American. Then like you Dork Weed, biatch about doing business with foreign suppliers. Sorry about that, I forgot, you don't have any problem with foreign suppliers.
I just don't buy the cockeyed bullchit about more CO2, the "subsidy" that isn't, (but in fact is a suspension of the taxes you claim to hate).
Take Ethanol, mix it with gas from domestic crude, fuel our trucks with leftovers, heat with domestic coal, throw in a little Hydro and wind, and they can have that catbox, if they screw with us we'll clean it out. Same for fat Huey.
Wake up Dork weed.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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figures, who used figures? The subsidy that is you mean, I could care less what the hell it sends into the atmosphere it's a fuel that is burned
Ethanol still sucks as a fuel, it is absolutely terrible
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
figures, who used figures? The subsidy that is you mean, I could care less what the hell it sends into the atmosphere it's a fuel that is burned
Can someone interpret that.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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translation
Ethanol still sucks as a fuel, it is absolutely terrible
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Vogi
member
Reged: 12/15/05
Posts: 1756
Loc: Saline County, MO
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Quote:
Liberty said:
translation
Ethanol still sucks as a fuel, it is absolutely terrible
But the E85 I burn in my 2004 Explorer saves me money on the fuel end, and makes me money on the production end. I guess you could say "I'm makin' money comin' and goin'."
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
Ethanol still sucks as a fuel, it is absolutely terrible
Fortunatly you're not normal enough to actually put up a clear lucid debate, so you haven't converted anyone.
You have proven that your ADD and fixation on fire hasn't changed however.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Ozark
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Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Hey, Vogi - Did you mention CO2 recovery systems and tanks at the ethanol plant? How does that work?
I'm sure they're catching and compressing CO2 instead of releasing it into the atmosphere. It seems like ethanol production would make so much CO2 it would be a glut on the market. However it's used, it'll end up released in the atmosphere eventually.
Before ethanol, breweries were able to supply the demand for CO2. It's an inert gas, and I guess the uses are fire extinguishers, carbonating beer, maybe propellant in some aerosol cans? Are they finding a market for all that CO2?
Just wondered.
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Liberty
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HB
ethanol lowers your miles per gallon expectation, hence it is a inferior fuel how's that for lucid dementia boy? 
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Vogi
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Reged: 12/15/05
Posts: 1756
Loc: Saline County, MO
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Quote:
Ozark said:
Hey, Vogi - Did you mention CO2 recovery systems and tanks at the ethanol plant? How does that work?
I'm sure they're catching and compressing CO2 instead of releasing it into the atmosphere. It seems like ethanol production would make so much CO2 it would be a glut on the market. However it's used, it'll end up released in the atmosphere eventually.
Before ethanol, breweries were able to supply the demand for CO2. It's an inert gas, and I guess the uses are fire extinguishers, carbonating beer, maybe propellant in some aerosol cans? Are they finding a market for all that CO2?
Just wondered.
They are capturing the C02 at MME, but I'm not up to speed on the hows or what fors. It's my understanding that another company has set up shop and handles that part of the setup.
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Vogi
member
Reged: 12/15/05
Posts: 1756
Loc: Saline County, MO
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Quote:
Liberty said:
HB
ethanol lowers your miles per gallon expectation, hence it is a inferior fuel how's that for lucid dementia boy?
You are right on the lowered fuel mileage. But I see that you forgot to figure in the reduced price of E85, or present any actual mileage figures. I have both, and E85 is saving me money every day.
It's been noted that beer lowers your ability to think rationally. Does that make it an inferior beverage?? It appears to waste corn much the same as ethanol...
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
I'm sure they're catching and compressing CO2 instead of releasing it into the atmosphere. It seems like ethanol production would make so much CO2 it would be a glut on the market. However it's used, it'll end up released in the atmosphere eventually.
Don't present that argument to a fifth grader Ozark, they'll be all over you.
At one time the earth's atmosphere was primarily CO2, and as the plants that trapped that CO2 were eventually turned into crude, the CO2 remained in the ground. When we burn gasoline, we release it.
Then there's Ethanol, which also releases CO2, the difference is that its CO2 comes from the present atmosphere, therefore there's no net gain.
look at it as if Ethanol come with built in Carbon credits.
Liberty, we know you're high on supporting the Camel
jockey's, you don't have to keep reminding us that you like foreign products over US products.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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Americans have the opportunity within its own borders to produce the better product, and yet we do all we can to produce the inferior one
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"At one time the earth's atmosphere was primarily CO2, and as the plants that trapped that CO2 were eventually turned into crude, the CO2 remained in the ground. When we burn gasoline, we release it.
Then there's Ethanol, which also releases CO2, the difference is that its CO2 comes from the present atmosphere, therefore there's no net gain.
look at it as if Ethanol come with built in Carbon credits."--HB
if this horsechit really concerned you then you would truly be appalled by the CO2 release associated with catastrophic forest fires
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Hellbender
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
if this horsechit really concerned you then you would truly be appalled by the CO2 release associated with catastrophic forest fires
Duh, they get it the same place corn does, Al, the atmosphere, and when the trees grow back, they'll recapture it.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"when the trees grow back"--HB
there's the problem
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Vogi
member
Reged: 12/15/05
Posts: 1756
Loc: Saline County, MO
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Carbon Credits....did you know I can also receive money for ground I grow crops on if I don't till it. Seems it catches the said carbon and somebody thinks that's worth something. Must be the folks that don't replant the trees.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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did you know that if I'm ever president I'll end all farm subsidies because they do nothing but rape the American taxpayer
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
did you know that if I'm ever president I'll end all farm subsidies because they do nothing but rape the American taxpayer
You really should pull your head out of your ass long enough to get some oxygen. While farm subsidies haven't always been perfect, they have kept our agriculture solvent, insuring that we have a clean food supply, free of Melamine.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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hillbilly
member
Reged: 12/27/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Cedar County
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Gol'dang it HB, don't you know firestorm orders 2 bags of melamine laced tofu for every honda he buys. Gotta support the cause you know. By the way firestorm, start selling that idea in your new home and find out from the cattle industry just exactly what they mean about shoot, shovel and shutup.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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I know exactly how people who accept subsidies feel about it being taken away, they end up having the same argument as the crack whore on welfare
they feel entitled to it, meanwhile those of us who make an honest living in what is left of the free market know we'll always be fine when the chit hits the fan, because we never sought a handout.
when the gubbamint tit dries up, don't ask me for help
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"they have kept our agriculture solvent"--HB
they have kept people with no business sense in business when they should have sought some other line of work
that's the painful ugly truth
I can't wait for one of you jackasses to say no farmers, no food
farming can survive on its own, it's kind of a necessary product it doesn't need help from the government
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Vogi
member
Reged: 12/15/05
Posts: 1756
Loc: Saline County, MO
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Sorry to report Liberty, but the gov doesn't pay the carbon deal....Guess you forgot to research that one too. But I do have a couple thousand acres worth of credits I'd sell you for a price.
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Vogi
member
Reged: 12/15/05
Posts: 1756
Loc: Saline County, MO
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Oh and I almost forgot.... "no farmers, no food!"
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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you have a linear mind, not to mention you are engaging in the greatest fraud of our time
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
they end up having the same argument as the crack whore on welfare
Dork Weed I hope you aren't look as you are stupid.
Even a crack whore ain't likely to give her name to the Man.
No farmers no food probably wouldn't bother you, I'm sure you would be happy sucking up those French made MRI's, in fact if they were made in Cuba it would probably make you even happier.
I'm sure your skin is crawling with the announcement that Ford reliability has now passed Toyota.
BWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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"Dork Weed I hope you aren't look as you are stupid."--HB
is that even English?
"I'm sure your skin is crawling with the announcement that Ford reliability has now passed Toyota.
BWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!"--HB
reliability, well that can mean a lot of things, Fords have always been reliable, you can always rely on them to break down
BWHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
I'm sorry were you trying to make a point about how great carbon credits are or something
damn liberal jackass
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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the whole no farmers, no food crap is aimed at keeping UNNEEDED farm subsidies
I always thought the American farmer envisioned themselves as tough, why is it that they can't do jack without a damn handout from the government?
Seriously, what is honorable in taking money from someone else?
Where's the honor in knowing you can't succeed without a handout?
Who on earth is so stupid as to not be able to run a business that has the second most important product in the world (food, which is second to water) at a profit?
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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"I'm sure you would be happy sucking up those French made MRI's"--HB
Isn't that one of them body scan machines
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
Seriously, what is honorable in taking money from someone else?
Like student loans? Like the GI bill? Like the First Amendment, while not a money handout, is free pass to make money without any guarantee of the truth.
Yup, Ford eclipsed the Mighty Toyota. Thats gotta hurt, don't it Dork Weed?
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Hellbender
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Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
Isn't that one of them body scan machines
Dieux, deux, MRI, MRE, I'm not into French chit.
I had K Rations.
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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MSN Vehicle Reliability Ratings
2007 Ford F-150
MSRP: $17,345 - $35,595
Invoice Price: $16,327 - $32,132
Expert Rating: 8.5 out of 10
User Rating: 9.7 out of 10
2007 Honda Ridgeline
MSRP: $27,800 - $34,940
Invoice Price: $25,042 - $31,458
Expert Rating: 8.0 out of 10
User Rating: 8.8 out of 10
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"Yup, Ford eclipsed the Mighty Toyota. Thats gotta hurt, don't it Dork Weed?"--HB
I don't own a Toyota, dumbass, and Toyota makes its number one seller in America, where does Ford make most of its vehicles?
Canada, Mexico, which one is it?
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
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Liberty
member
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Posts: 5796
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"I had K Rations"--HB
when was that, your last hunting trip
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Liberty
member
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Posts: 5796
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MRE-you mean Meals Ready to Eat rather than magnetic resonance imaging
yeah I can see the French problem you were having
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"MSN"--HB
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
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Liberty
member
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Posts: 5796
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"Like student loans? Like the GI bill? Like the First Amendment, while not a money handout, is free pass to make money without any guarantee of the truth."--HB
You're reeling again
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
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Liberty
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having trouble with the keyboard there Tonto?
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Liberty
member
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Posts: 5796
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BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!
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Liberty
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damn how long does it take you to post something Tonto?
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
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Liberty
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anyday now Tonto
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Liberty
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it's i before e except after c unless you are talking about society
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Liberty
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BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
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Liberty
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Tonto why don't you tend to Silver
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Liberty
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BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
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Vogi
member
Reged: 12/15/05
Posts: 1756
Loc: Saline County, MO
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Corns up today, ethanols even, and the check showed up yesterday. I'd say it's been a good week. Time to help ol' foots some more....
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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The gubbamint robs Peter to pay Vogi, I mean Paul
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Vogi
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Reged: 12/15/05
Posts: 1756
Loc: Saline County, MO
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You bet it does, and you can go see on the web just how much they have paid me. And then I can show you how we just pass it on to the chemical, seed and other supplies of our inputs. If you think for a minute that money stays were it is paid intially, you are dead wrong. I ain't nothin' more than a middle man to pass the money along. And everybody knows it but Washington. Check out the relationship between farm subsidies and input costs and you'll see what I mean.
Looks like the China man forgot to raise much of a crop this year, so it looks like the grains may trend up some more. During harvest time at that!
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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the question remains why you can't make it without government help
you produce food, it's kind of needed by everyone on the planet and you can't figure out a way to make a profit off of it without getting advanced from the government
that's pathetic
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JJ McGuire
Reged: 06/01/06
Posts: 357
Loc: Chester Springs, PA
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What is the difference between a tax break and a subsidy?
Aside that one is usually given by state or nation in which part of the taxes that would normally be collected from an organization are instead foregone in order to encourage the production or purchase of a good and the other is a type of financial government assistance in order to encourage the production or purchase of a good?
Oh and one is associated with a farm and the other with a company?
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keeping it rural
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Vogi
member
Reged: 12/15/05
Posts: 1756
Loc: Saline County, MO
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Quote:
Liberty said:
the question remains why you can't make it without government help
you produce food, it's kind of needed by everyone on the planet and you can't figure out a way to make a profit off of it without getting advanced from the government
that's pathetic
This is your take and what you say. I never said I don't make a profit without the gov money, we do just fine thank you. Your statement is an assumption you made in your factless arguement, and your assumptions are what are pathetic.
All the gov check does is make me pay a larger tax bill each year. And you can take some comfort is knowing that between the state and feds, I give half of it back.
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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"What is the difference between a tax break and a subsidy?"--JJ
your question assumes that all the money is the government's
a tax cut assures you keep more of your own money
a tax break is a government meddling in your business, bribing you to do something you wouldn't do otherwise, pretty damn unAmerican if you ask me
a subsidy takes your money and gives it to Vogi because your government decided he is more important than you are
the government tells the nation what is important rather than the people of the nation telling the government what is important
A Nanny state with nipples for everyone provided what they do is acceptable to the government
did you forget you are free JJ?
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Liberty
member
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Posts: 5796
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"This is your take and what you say. I never said I don't make a profit without the gov money, we do just fine thank you. Your statement is an assumption you made in your factless arguement, and your assumptions are what are pathetic.
All the gov check does is make me pay a larger tax bill each year. And you can take some comfort is knowing that between the state and feds, I give half of it back."--Vogi
so you admit to not needing a government check yet you accept it anyway, that's even more pathetic
I take no comfort in the government robbing people of their money each year
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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I love all you so-called conservatives coming out of the woodwork and defending subsidies
this is classic, y'all might as well vote for Hillary
every damn one of you
the difference between the argument you guys are stating and the one the socialists are stating is only differentiated by nuance.
We are a capitalist society, in case you all have forgotten, we don't need government subsidies
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Vogi
member
Reged: 12/15/05
Posts: 1756
Loc: Saline County, MO
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Quote:
Liberty said:
...takes your money and gives it to Vogi because your government decided he is more important than you are...
And don't you forget it! 
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Vogi
member
Reged: 12/15/05
Posts: 1756
Loc: Saline County, MO
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Quote:
Liberty said:
so you admit to not needing a government check yet you accept it anyway, that's even more pathetic
Call it what you want, all I know is the man says "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you."
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Vogi
member
Reged: 12/15/05
Posts: 1756
Loc: Saline County, MO
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Quote:
Liberty said:
I love all you so-called conservatives coming out of the woodwork and defending subsidies
When did I ever say I was a conservative?
Step away from the pitcher dude... 
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
you produce food, it's kind of needed by everyone on the planet and you can't figure out a way to make a profit off of it without getting advanced from the government
Rosie if you could somehow manage to pull your head out and think in something other than simplistic terms, you would understand a lot of concepts.
Lets see, in Rosie Dorkweed's world we wouldn't have any government intervention in Flu shots, if we were to have a major outbreak, we would just happily suffer the consequences. We would only have a military when we needed one, if they were untrained and short of personnel, we would just accept the consequences. If farmers have a bad year and have no guarantee of solvency, they just plant a lot less, and if more crops than usual fail for unseen reasons, we can just accept the consequences of food shortages.
Rosie, you're not a conservative, you're an anarchist with a governing philosophy that predates caveman, who obviously was more socially advanced than you.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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No, I just have faith in individuals and I don't fall for fear politics
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"government intervention in Flu shots"--HB
you want a shortage ask the government to administer it
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"If farmers have a bad year and have no guarantee of solvency, they just plant a lot less, and if more crops than usual fail for unseen reasons, we can just accept the consequences of food shortages."--HB
Why? How much of the damn stuff do we export anyway if there's going to be a shortage it won't be here
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
Why? How much of the damn stuff do we export anyway if there's going to be a shortage it won't be here
Well if you don't know how much we export, maybe you should give up your job as expert forester, leave the woods and move to the farm, and become an expert farmer.
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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I always love it when I know you got the point and you have nothing to say, you've had one true statement over the past six months, in fact you can't debate
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
I just have faith in individuals and I don't fall for fear politics
In this country individuals are suppose to shape politics, but unfortunately in our haste to enjoy the fruits of our democracy, we forgot to keep our eye on our representatives. That has little to do with what should be, nor that changes need to be made, we have to get back to where we should be to evaluate anything.
The concept that we don't need anything from a common effort is too ignorant to even consider.
A true conservative wants minimal government, but not to the point that we lose all the benefits of common efforts where its beneficial. They believe history is an important reminder and that you don't solve problems that don't yet exist. The most important thing that conservatives believe in is covering your ass, such as making sure are food supply is protected.
Your idea of government is being tested today, in Somalia.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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"The concept that we don't need anything from a common effort is too ignorant to even consider."--Hellbender
yeah we need a common defense, roads, administration of justice and very little else
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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"A true conservative wants minimal government, but not to the point that we lose all the benefits of common efforts where its beneficial. They believe history is an important reminder and that you don't solve problems that don't yet exist."--Helliberal
we don't need national forests
we don't need national healthcare
we don't need a complicated tax system that punishes achievement, ownership and the fact that we all die
we don't need the government controlling agriculture
we don't need the government controlling land use
we don't need the government interfering with our lives to the level they currently do and any subtraction from this level is a move in the right direction (pun intended)
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Liberty
member
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Posts: 5796
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We don't need an FDA
We don't need a Department of Education
We don't need a Department of Commerce
We don't need a Department of Agriculture
We don't need a Department of the Interior
We don't need a Department of Housing and Urban Development
We don't need a Department of Homeland Security (we already had one)
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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the only difference in the America you want Hellbender and the one Hillary wants is the amount of flow we get from suckling the government teat
she wants a flood that we choke on and you want a steady, unending stream that bloats us
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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"enjoy the fruits of our democracy"--Helliberal
that's a fundamental problem with your argument, we are a constitutional republic even the damn New York Times knows that
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
that's a fundamental problem with your argument, we are a republic
I. E. we don't have a king, we are, to be more specific a Representative democracy.
Quote:
We don't need an FDA
We don't need a Department of Education
We don't need a Department of Commerce
We don't need a Department of Agriculture
We don't need a Department of the Interior
We don't need a Department of Housing and Urban Development
We don't need a Department of Homeland Security (we already had one)
Quote:
We don't need an FDA
We don't need a Department of Education
We don't need a Department of Commerce
We don't need a Department of Agriculture
We don't need a Department of the Interior
We don't need a Department of Housing and Urban Development
We don't need a Department of Homeland Security (we already had one)
Wrong, we don't them dictating, we need them assisting states in perfecting those endeavors. We need them to be much smaller and more accountable.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
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Posts: 5796
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to be more specific dumbass, it's called a constitutional republic
as to the other crap you posted that didn't make any damn sense
we've tried it your way jackass and it is a complete failure
why do the states need various federal departments to assist them?
the states can do a much better job in all of those areas, and the private market can do a better job than the states in all of those areas
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
to be more specific dumbass, it's called a constitutional republic
So frigging what, I still think that today Ethanol is the best technology to deprive your buddies in the sand box of our money. When better comes along I'll jump on that.
I'll bet like Ozark you have a big investment in oil, but unlike Ozark, you're not man enough or honest enough to admit it.
$90 dollars and rising sure means Ethanol is getting cheaper and cheaper.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
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Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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I liquidated all my stocks when I left for the Cayman Islands, milled around a bit flush with cash (which I recommend on an island full of hot tourist women who you won't see again), then, bought land in Oregon and put some of that money back into various funds.
I wish I did own Exxon stock, it's a damn fine company, they know their chit
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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I don't knock Exxon, in fact they have the system to put Ethanol, or some other alternate fuel into place. We simply have to tell them we want to give our money to Americans, at least as much as we can.
There is more to petroleum than gas, and if the demand drops because of Ethnaol, you can bet your ass the price of a barrel will come crashing down. When that happens we can adjust our mix to keep the Camel Jockeys and Jungle Monkeys on their toes.
You know I'm right.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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no you're not right, we need to nuke the sonsabitches and take the damn oil while wearing friggin' protective suits
it's that simple
everything else is akin to pounding yer pecker sure it feels good but it gets you nowhere
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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I see the stock market lost 367 points today, I hope they didn't all take my advice and are headed to the Caymans
damn media is calling it a crash, it's 367 points in a 14,000 point field, somebody quick run the percentages 2.6 percent loss today
but it's a crash according to the dumbass media
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Ozark
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 4012
Loc: out in the woods
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Speculators are driving crude oil futures up, it's a bubble.
That doesn't change the underlying fact that worldwide demand for oil is rising faster than new reserves. Oil will never be cheap again, but I expect it'll get back to about $65 a barrel instead of $90.
That's OK, I'm in it for the long term. Hellbender's right - we need to use whatever mix of alternate fuels it takes to cut America's dependence on foreign energy sources.
Alternative fuels aren't going to break any oil companies. Oil companies are going to make plenty of money anyway.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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I'm not against alternative fuels, ethanol just ain't the savior, though it can be a part of the solution
I only dislike all the damn subsidy in everything
it's an energy product, that's right behind food and water as necessary, therefore the private market should be left alone to solve it and not have it propped up by government subsidy, you may think that keeps the prices down, but in actuality all it does is hide the true cost because people are too stupid to realize the taxes they pay are being diverted to this chit.
same damn thing with healthcare get the damn government out of the way and the market will fix the damn problem
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Quote:
I only dislike all the damn subsidy in everything
Rosie make up your mind, the "subsidy" is a non tax, they don't pay the tax that Brazil does.
So, do you or do you not like taxes?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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every product in this world will be better and cheaper without government involvement
if government weren't sticking its nose into everything, a private market would decide which products were best and not a protectionist government
and I guarantee you that within that system America would far outshine its foreign competitors
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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So, do you or do you not like taxes?
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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depends on the tax
too much money in Washington only leads to more meddling
they meddle now even though they don't have the money to pay for their meddling
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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So you think Ethanol should be taxed?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
Edited by Hellbender (10/20/07 10:15 PM)
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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at the point of sale yes
subsidized before that, no
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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The subsidy on Ethanol is the suspension of a wholesale tax on domestic supplies. So maybe you can drop the subsidy crap.
The anti's want to add the cost of production, but they don't deduct the sale of by products. They kind of have your mentality Rosie, pick and choose facts, true or not, that support your argument.
To evaluate Ethanol, you have to look outside the box and compare the total gains with the realistic cost. Until something better shows up, its the most promising.
Even Henry Ford started with Ethanol, and you know why he changed to gas, don't you?
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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I heard he hated sod busters
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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I didn't think you knew, in over your head once again.
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Liberty
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Posts: 5796
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oh please professor hellliberal tell us this scintillating lesson from history that's going to somehow make ethanol a better fuel than gasoline
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Hellbender
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 3416
Loc: Taney County
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Well Rosie it was two fold, and I'll bring you up to speed.
The most important was that Ethanol is corrosive, and Henry didn't have a lot of materials to use in storing and delivering it in the car. We don't have that problem today.
The second is that the domestic oil boom was emerging in the southern plains, that would be Oklahoma and parts of Kansas and Texas Rosie, providing what appeared to be endless supply of crude. The lack of a realistic supply of crude is a problem today.
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A government survey has shown that 91% of illegal immigrants come to this country so that they can see their own doctor.
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Liberty
member
Reged: 12/14/05
Posts: 5796
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yawn
that's incredibly important stuff, the kind of stuff that keeps me on the edge of my seat
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