Cafeoutdoors.com: Poor Politics

Jaeger, sorry to burst your bubble, its the same old me - the problem is that I'm not and never have been the utopian socialist you think I am....

You ask, "How many peaceful changes from totalitarianism to democracy can you recount?" I recall none, though I'm no expert in history. I'm not sure what your point is, but I assume you are hinting at Iraq. If so, the fact that transitions from totalitarianism to democracy are not peaceful does not mean that we should be in the business of trying to force that transition in far flung corners of the Earth. Both of your examples - the American and French revolutions - are not poor analogies to Iraq. Both were, well, revolutions and not invasions/occupations followed by efforts to cobble support from factions that have been at each other's throats for centuries. Both revolutions were started and largely maintained by the oppressed population -populations I might add that were not divided upon along relgious and ethnic divisions that have a bitter history going back a millenium or so. While there were differences and disagreements in the American and French revolutions, there was a commont thread of identity as new Americans (and British ex pats) and Frenchmen - in Iraq, you've got a few Iraqis and a lot of Sunnis, Shia, and Kurds - which makes some sense as modern day geopolitical Iraq is the product of past interventions - the birth of the nation of Iraq was not a voluntary collection of people with historic, common ties to one another - the whole thing has been a mess and will be for the foreseeable future. Ah, the wonders of primitive, inflexible, fundamentalist religion! But, whatever - we're there now, the going is tough, and we owe it to the Iraqis who have fought with us and our fellow Americans who have died/served over there to try and establish some security/stability over there - the hole has been dug, so we gotta shore it up.

Never said "eliminate religion" - its just the nutcase flat Earth folks that have such influence over Republican social policy. And no, our rights don't stem from a covenant with God, or Allah, or Santa - our rights stem from an ancient Western tradition of philosophy and political thought that recognizes a certain conception of rational human being possessed with free will. Its up to us, not God - therein lies both the opportunity and the peril.

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